Opt for Cleaver nerf (im srs nao)

[h_twenty]

With his consent, I present to you: EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT OP CLEAVER!

12:02 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: OPPPP
12:09 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=158963600
12:09 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: Across the map
12:09 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=158963886 1v1 OP
12:10 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=158963642 He tried to run away with Escape Plan, but I shut him up by throwing a cleaver at him OP
12:10 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=158963675 I hit you with this OP weapon and you died by bleed damage
12:11 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=158963713 Midair cleaver airshot OP shut down hax
12:12 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=158963817 Twenty knows
12:12 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=158963857 Killed you with this OP as fuck cleaver when you were Medic
12:13 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 44% of a sniper's health is gone by the initial hit of the Cleaver
12:13 AM - h_twenty: :p
12:13 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 56% of an Sniper/Engineer's health is gone after the bleed
12:14 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: Now Juri said the cleaver can deal 100 damage at the initial hit
12:14 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: + bleed
12:14 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: So that's around...
12:14 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 150 damage?
12:14 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 100% of a Medic's HP is gone after the bleed
12:14 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: (lel, Blutsauger)
12:17 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: Oh oh get this
12:17 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: I was wrong with the 70 damage
12:18 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: Point Blank? The damage is 44-57
12:18 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: Base Damage is 50
12:18 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: The bleed is 40
12:18 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: So it deals 90 damage
12:18 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: lel
12:18 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 90 x 1.60
12:18 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 144 damage
12:18 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: with Hunter
12:19 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: leeeeel
12:19 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: to be more exact
12:19 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 50 x 1.6
12:19 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 80
12:19 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: + the bleed
12:19 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 40 x 1.6
12:19 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 64
12:19 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 80+64
12:19 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 144
12:19 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: so ye
12:19 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: That's pretty OP
12:19 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: not to mention the regen
12:20 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: OH, and that's without the minicrit
12:20 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: long range minicrit
12:20 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: Long range minicrit is 58-77 damage
12:22 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: So umm
12:22 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: Minicrits
12:22 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: Mini-crits add an extra 35% damage to a weapon's damage.
12:22 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: SOOO
12:22 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 1.35
12:22 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 50 x 1.35
12:22 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 67.5
12:22 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: since we're so nice to Juri
12:23 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: we'll round it down
12:23 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 67 damage
12:23 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: +40
12:23 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 107 damage
12:23 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: lel
12:23 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: + the 1.6 from Hunter
12:23 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 171.2 damage
12:23 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: Definitely enough to kill a Medic
12:23 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: Oh, my bad
12:24 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: I forgot to
12:24 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 40 x 1.6
12:24 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: 64
12:24 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: but whatever
12:24 AM - h_twenty: >.>
12:24 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: the 1.6 to the sum
12:24 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: is enough
12:24 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: So see?
12:24 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: The cleaver is OP on ZF
12:24 AM - h_twenty: Yes
12:25 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: So we get 90 damage
12:25 AM - Doctor Scootaloo: and apply it to 125
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And from my point of view
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The cleaver apparently scales with perks. This means that its damage is going to be buffed more than it should be. >>>HUNTER<<<.
Oh and Voidy also said it IS NOT (not like that though) ignored by perks. Its included and scaled.

PIC UNRELATED!

[iR| Doctor Scootaloo]

My math is a bit off, but that seems about right.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/55914318/removecleaverfromzf.png

[Lunacy]

SKYRANGE FUCKBLADE

SUPERMURDER SKYKNIFE

[h_twenty]

Just Humor me here and lets say that the victim has been stunned with the bat and is rendered immobile.
Cleavers can pretty much One-Shot all survivor classes. And if they live, bleed damage willl finish them off.

Nerfnerfnerfnerfnerfnerf

[VoiDeD]

Cleavers on stunned targets pretty much oneshot people in TF2 in general.

Two options here:
  - Complain to valve.
  - Dodge the baseball.

[h_twenty]

Can the cleaver be removed? And the Holiday Punch be re-added in it's place?

[Lunacy]

Cleaver doesn't crit, that's been balanced, but still does deal quite an ammount of damage.
And holiday punch still works as it normally does, last I was on the server. :T

[h_twenty]

As far as I know, the Holiday Punch got the boot. If Ticklish mittens had to go, WHY DIDN'T THE FLYING MEAT BLADE? D:<

[h_twenty]

OH LOOKS LIKE THE POLL IS FINISHED. HALF OF THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED THINK ITS OP AND DESERVES A NICE BIG BOOT TO THE ASS.

[VoiDeD]

And the other half thinks it's balanced or otherwise fair.

[h_twenty]

The other half voted for something else, not the same thing. The one which says cleaver is OP got the most votes.

Fine, if you're unwilling to remove it, can you at least cancel out the "Sandman+Cleaver" combo? Or set the regen rate for cleaver to as long as the sandman?

[VoiDeD]

can you at least cancel out the "Sandman+Cleaver" combo?

I'm under the impression that because of:

Cleaver doesn't crit, that's been balanced, but still does deal quite an ammount of damage.

The combo isn't that powerful anyway?

And regardless:

  - Dodge the baseball.

Coincidentally during the recent downtime we had when Valve's update broke shit, I hopped on ZF for a few rounds to make sure the game was stable. During this time a few scouts attempted using the stun/cleaver combo on me, and it wasn't very effective for them as dodging the baseball isn't exactly the world's most difficult thing if you're moving around.

[h_twenty]

Fine, I'll record a whole session there and skip to the parts where I get cleaver insta-d. Ok, fine, the baseball is easy to dodge, but when you get hit, you move painfully slow (fair) and get more than one cleaver chucked at you. These minicrit or crit with the baseball. Meaning it does 150 damage+bleed most of the time. That isn't very fair to the survivors at all.

Ok, next time I get on zf, I'll record when I get cleavered. THEN YOU'LL SEE THE POWER OF THE CLEAVER.

just add a script that doesn't allow the cleaver to be used with the baseball, that way people can still get the stun+cleaver if they work together. encouraging teamwork.

[Lunacy]

It's just that I think people complain about scouts being able to kill everyone from large distances, because zombies aren't usually supposed to be able to be killing people from long distances because they're usually melee-restricted.  The guillotine with does something like 90-100 damage on a successful hit before bonus atk/def perks, and when the whole team has guillotines being thrown all around every 6 seconds it does seem like it's getting ridiculous on paper.

People just feel like it counters the nature of the zombie team, instead of going in for melee like they're supposed to, scouts can just camp from a distance and chuck cleavers every 6 seconds.

My only idea to solve this without banning the item completely is to either increase the recharge time or give it a 1 charge throw so it doesn't recharge until death.

[h_twenty]

Agreed. Either changing the regen rate to longer or equal to that of the sandman, canceling out the Sandman+Cleaver combo, or -if needs be- banning the cleaver would be agreeable.