OP Weapons/ suggested weapon changes.

[box]

It's kind of hard to dodge that one, especially if it's on a map with few to no additional health packs like brawl or goldtooth.

The thing with heavies though is to not approach them head-on. In the case of brawl or goldtooth, there's more than one way to get to the CP. Stating the obvious, with goldtoof you can take the roof access to the CP and drop from above or just grab the small health pack below the CP. With Brawl, I think that's okay given the size of map to health pack ratio: it ensures that you can't just outrun everybody on a giant map while constantly replenishing your health. Even on a small map like Farm Feud, if a heavy is camping you can just drop from the roof and you have 4 ways to enter the CP.

[Shooter`]

The thing with heavies though is to not approach them head-on. In the case of brawl or goldtooth, there's more than one way to get to the CP. Stating the obvious, with goldtoof you can take the roof access to the CP and drop from above or just grab the small health pack below the CP. With Brawl, I think that's okay given the size of map to health pack ratio: it ensures that you can't just outrun everybody on a giant map while constantly replenishing your health. Even on a small map like Farm Feud, if a heavy is camping you can just drop from the roof and you have 4 ways to enter the CP.

None of this changes the fact that if he's sitting ON THE CP, you're dead in 5-6 shots, and any halfway competent heavy can hit that many out of the 15 or so he'll be able to get off in the time it takes you to get in and out. Number of ways to get to the CP isn't really the problem when one person can decide to make it unfeasible to get the health regen.

While you CAN grab the health pack on goldtooth (and it's often a better idea than grabbing the CP health), it's very easy for one pyro with speed boosts to follow you in and flame you again as you get out because you more or less have to run a linear path in that downstairs room.

[VoiDeD]

Can someone explain to me what the issue is with heavies sitting on the CP? What does heavy have to do with it?

I've sat on the CP as a pyro and have flamethrower + flare combo'd tons of props running for health, and no one seems to be complaining about that.

[box]

Thats a good point, Voided. Basically people probably notice the heavies more because most people play pyro. Realize most heavies suck and don't accumulate a lot of kills because of how fucking slow they are. So, they need to get driveby kills in order to get the speed they need to be competitive with other classes. This is all getting out of hand anyway: you play a game in which one end kills the other, you should expect to die. This newest wave of prophunters expect all props to live and to be friendly/untouched when they blantantly call out what prop they are.

More on topic, I hear that the newest engi shotgun is extremely op, with maybe 2 hits and death and fantastic damage with long range. This is the reason this thread exists, not for every minor complaint.

[MrEskimoMan]

I said 3 hits and good damage at medium range
you fucking
cat

[Shooter`]

Can someone explain to me what the issue is with heavies sitting on the CP? What does heavy have to do with it?

I've sat on the CP as a pyro and have flamethrower + flare combo'd tons of props running for health, and no one seems to be complaining about that.

1) Heavy does tons more DPS than flamethrower + flare at close range, and it does its damage as a continuous stream rather than a burst every 1.6 seconds with a stream in between.

2) It's far easier to track with the minigun than to aim a flare.

3) I can dodge a perfectly aimed flare (think aimbot). I can't dodge a perfectly tracked minigun (think aimbot).

4) Flamethrower, which is the pyro's highest source of continuous damage, has a limited range which I think is smaller than the Heavy's range before any falloff at all.

5) As a proportion of players on each class, there are far more heavies that sit on the control point than pyros who do as opposed to heavies that search for props and pyros that search for props. I think this is due to the way heavy is designed (slow, slower when using his main source of damage) as well as new players' unfamiliarity with the maps and unwillingness to give the shotgun and melee weapons a shot over the minigun. It's far easier to play heavy as an immobile pseudo-sentry gun than it is to utilize his other available weapons.

[MrEskimoMan]

Just a question, why does everyone think that the shotgun is so op and just complains and calls them shitguns/shotgun n00bs when they are heavily nerfed and only have 2 shots a clip? You can't even kill a prop point blank with a full clip.
However, the flare on the other hand, can kill with 1 shot, as long as the prop is even the tiniest bit on fire, unless you're extremely close to a HP pack, although the knockback on crit flares is ridiculous?
Everytime a regular dies they make some fucking stupid excuse unless it was another regular which they're like "XD OOPS SOZZY BBY <3 U i tot u wer a real prop not friendly "
And sometimes when a regular dies to a shotgun, OTHER REGULARS COMPLAIN, I killed someone with a shotgun and there were 4 consecutive complaints about shotgun in prop.
tl;dr shotgun isn't that bad, flare is

[VoiDeD]

This thread in a nutshell: remove every weapon

[mongolian-bbq]

tl;dr shotgun isn't that bad, flare is

The basis behind the whole "shitgun" thing (I think) is that since you don't have to track your target like you do with the flare, it can be considered too easy, or noobish, to use, and a lot of new players tend to just stick with it the whole round instead of pulling out their flamethrower. It also has a good amount of knockback which can be very frustrating when trying to run away or run around. Yes, flame-flare combo with the degreaser is deadly, but from close range, the stock flamethrower can kill nearly as quickly if the prop stays still for any longer than a second. Flame-axtinguisher is instakill as well, but it doesn't seem to have raised your interest at all. Using the flare is harder as well when you factor in having to lead the target and considering it is pretty easy to dodge as long as you don't run in a straight line. I do agree that the complaining is annoying and a bit silly - I've done it myself more than a few times - and it just stems from those who wish for prophunt to be more about fun and less about playing the game, really.

[Shooter`]

Just a question, why does everyone think that the shotgun is so op and just complains and calls them shitguns/shotgun n00bs when they are heavily nerfed and only have 2 shots a clip?

When someone shoots a flare at you, you can dodge it 100% of the time barring lag or some other unfortunate circumstance. You can't dodge a well-aimed shotgun. At all. It's on the scout dodging the flare to have good movement while it's on the shotgun pyro to have good aim.

You can't even kill a prop point blank with a full clip.

Yes you can. 60 base damage + max of 15% because of damage spread is max 69 damage per shot.

However, the flare on the other hand, can kill with 1 shot, as long as the prop is even the tiniest bit on fire, unless you're extremely close to a HP pack, although the knockback on crit flares is ridiculous?

I suppose I'm being a bit pedantic, but it cannot kill with one flame particle, it only does 90 (+6 from the flame). Also, knockback is tied directly to damage dealt, pre-nerf reserve shooter would have more knockback on a perfect air shot, and current shotgun has roughly 70% as much on a perfect shot.

Everytime a regular dies they make some fucking stupid excuse unless it was another regular which they're like "XD OOPS SOZZY BBY <3 U i tot u wer a real prop not friendly "

What?

And sometimes when a regular dies to a shotgun, OTHER REGULARS COMPLAIN, I killed someone with a shotgun and there were 4 consecutive complaints about shotgun in prop.

Haven't seen this, but I'd bet it's because they already don't like the shotgun.

tl;dr shotgun isn't that bad, flare is

Nah, they're equally bad. Or good. Either way. Neither of them needs to be changed, and it's easy to dodge the M1-Q-M1 combo that most people complain about by moving before you get flamed. The majority of people that I see complain about my flare don't even try to move before they're dead - You and Box are the only people I've seen try to run from my flares before complaining about them.

The basis behind the whole "shitgun" thing (I think) is that since you don't have to track your target like you do with the flare, it can be considered too easy, or noobish, to use, and a lot of new players tend to just stick with it the whole round instead of pulling out their flamethrower.

People don't like the shotgun because it is similar to the flaregun. Since it's been nerfed, it doesn't provide nearly the burst damage that the flare does, but it provides more utility. You can weapon heckle a prop that's running to negate their health packs or run up to them and get a good shot off to finish them. It becomes frustrating when no matter how good your movement is, you still get shot either because the person with the shotgun has good aim or because your last dodge didn't register on their screen due to lag. And you got hit.

It also has a good amount of knockback which can be very frustrating when trying to run away or run around. Yes, flame-flare combo with the degreaser is deadly, but from close range, the stock flamethrower can kill nearly as quickly if the prop stays still for any longer than a second.

Stock flamethrower can kill a prop in around 0.7 seconds. Degreaser + flare can kill a prop in (if I did my math right) 0.426 seconds + travel time for the flare. The downside would be that for another 0.25 seconds or so the degreaser + flare guy can't do anything, putting deg+flare roughly on par with the flamethrower.

Flame-axtinguisher is instakill as well, but it doesn't seem to have raised your interest at all.

Likely because I have more flare kills than everyone who axtinguishes has axe kills combined. And I used to play a lot.

I do agree that the complaining is annoying and a bit silly - I've done it myself more than a few times - and it just stems from those who wish for prophunt to be more about fun and less about playing the game, really.

People complain because there's something that annoys them. The people who "want the game to be more about fun" find it annoying that any server regular disagrees with their definition of fun - just look at all the times I get called a tryhard and "go outside, Shooter", etc... Every time I play prop hunt and don't quit after a round or two, I'm having fun. Winning is fun. Not for everyone, but some people get it and some don't.

As for me, I complain about the one-shot melee weapons, minigun, and certain maps because they annoy me when I play. Not that we can do anything about some of them, but that doesn't ease my mind at all. =P

[box]

People complain because there's something that annoys them. The people who "want the game to be more about fun" find it annoying that any server regular disagrees with their definition of fun - just look at all the times I get called a tryhard and "go outside, Shooter", etc... Every time I play prop hunt and don't quit after a round or two, I'm having fun. Winning is fun. Not for everyone, but some people get it and some don't.

Same for me obviously. After 1 and half rounds last nite, Hoodie throws a shitfit. Anyway I think the only way the "general public" could be happy is if all weapons were banned and/or completely nerfed to being worthless and every prop was allowed to live and feel like a champ.

As Voided backed me up, "This thread in a nutshell: remove every weapon." We really should cut this down to only the new and extremely unfair weapons. Crying about specifics and smaller details about preexisting weapons is pointless because these are things that have been set in stone for years now and the mod has been shaped in part by them.

[Hoodie]

Same for me obviously. After 1 and half rounds last nite, Hoodie throws a shitfit.

Shit...fit? What?

Is that in respect to me leaving after only a round or so? If so, no, I do leave on occasion because I'm not feeling the match, or the fact that I do want to do other thing than prophunt 24/7.

I know you don't like me Box, the feeling is mutual, but please, lets keep this pissing contest between us.

Also, it isn't the shotgun I care about, its the fact that people brag about being "Dope az sh1t" or say you suck when they kill you with that or the minigun, but there is no way of fixing that, just something to live with, and occasionally get mad at.


Inb4 shitstorm incomming

[box]

I knew you couldn't resist responding to that one. Nah kid, it was that after a round you said to go outside in the snow, spend time with family, etc. You emphasized Shooter's point after A round, when I hadn't said shit about nothin to nobody. 99% of the time people have an issue with me long before I have an issue with them.

Anyway, my post above was that I'm agreeing with Shooter and Voided on the points, and thats my point.

[Miaumon]

[HipsterGlaceon]

Take this off topic shit to another post, please. This is a topic for weapons.