weapons,perks, and balance issues

so as of bobos recent thread about the basher and crit cola im going to list the current weapons both survivor and zombie with perks that compliment them or make them over powered. feel free to weigh in here.this is by no means targeting anyone, any weapon, or any class, or perk. this is educational only

zombies

scout mele

basher/blade: can be buffed with the crit a cola in a average game outside zombies this might be nothing in zf this gives zombies a almost guaranteed 100 points of damage from 1 mele hit, the bleeds gain mini crit bonus aswell.
crit cola aside still pretty powerful with perks like:
hunter-placing spawn and giving a short window of 10%-70% mele damage stackable with the critacola. this is 1 shot territory.

scrotching-while giving a decrease to attack it provides a increase in spead aswell as the ability to set anyone on fire, stacking bleeds and a crit basher this is another (if least popular way) of dealing as much damage as possible.

vampiric-gives no passive abilities other than a quick health regen and the ability to leach health for whatever percentage of damage done. this forgives the basher almost entirely for scouts that just swing away. using the crit cola with this also increases health you get back from mele hits.

toxic-while completly removing the attack damage all together  reguardless of weapon this perk itself can be boosted by the crit cola, making the scout sort of a radar while this would sound like a good team mechanic in some situations it becomes difficult for survivors who cant find health packs. the only nerf i can see at all is the inability to stack toxic. but the 5-10 damage ticking away is really difficult to counter in small maps.

vindictive- when pared with the basher and crit cola racking up kills is as simple as hunter. the stacking attack and deffensive bonus given with the crit cola and basher make this a fast moving heavy in a way. true if you make the kills you deserve the benefits of the perk but the ammout at witch it stacks and the fact that bleeds also increase in damage make killing survivors all the easier.

alpha-when used with the basher and crit cola getting minions is easy but where this really becomes a problem is when there are a few zombies tagging along. gaining attack for eash one makes the zombie as storng as if having a constant hunter perk. while ive only seen it as high as 45 att this is more than enough to 1 shot most classes 150 and under or 2 shot soldiers and demos.

cleaver: can have almost the same benifits as the basher/blade as to if the bleeds from both weapons stack im not sure. but a ranged 50-80 cleaver with any of the above combos (even tho it cant be buffed by cola) can become a problem, one lesser known bennifit to the cleaver is the knockback. if a suvivor has balanced themselves on a object they have rocket jumped onto they can be knocked off if from under or the sides. the fact its main damage caan be buffed by any of the above perks makes this a ranged (yet slower) basher.

the fan: not as usefull as the basher or cleaver but combined with alphaand this combo was almost designed to pick off survivors. by adding a minicirt vulnerability to its victem despite the -90% debuff it can do more damage, while this is normally nothing to worry about while buffed this can take down a turtle with the help of 1 other zombie, when the survivor dies because its used with alpha survivors become zombies that can be summoned (nothing unuseual) added with the damage bonus,fast rate of fire, and applying mini crits this can do a bit of damage. while i see no need to buff its something i would consider tweaking, maybe a slower rate of fire/shoter minicrit time.

mad milk- more of a utility than a threat combined with vampiric and a basher and the health regen of double that of a vampiric heavy. 2 sources of health regen with the ability makes the milk something to worry about, double so when its effect does get applied to other perks that benifit from health regen from damage percentage.

prettyboys pocket pistol- not used as often  only provides the scout with 15 extra hp and a immunity from fall damage, the downside(50% fire damage vulnerability on wearer) becomes null and void when matched with scortching, giving no fall damage and extra health. not bad when matched with the sun on a stick and scortching for minicrits.

heavy related in next post.

heavy related perks/weapons.

holiday punch while claiming it has the same as vanilla fist stats this weapon still functions the way its ment to. getting luck with a back punch is still a common sight matched with the steak while there is no guaranteed effect on crits gained it still makes this a "backstab" weapon mechanic giving a near instant free kill

warriors spirit- even tho it has a hp nerf and speed nerf as well as a rate of fire nerf there are plenty of perks to make this into its original status. using scortching with a steak or rage with a steak makes you actually run the normal/a little faster then the nerf called for.

eviction notice-from what i can tell from using it latly, the hp nerf of 100 points doesnt effect this weapon too much, its more a utility than w weapon, used with thieving this makes stealing weapons easier than as a scout., combined with vampiric this makes for fast hp gain, used with hunter this makes for a faster rate of fire vanilla fist.

KGB  i dont know if this has been nerfed in teh past couple months but on kill granting crits is a huge advantage, using this with vampiric or hunter makes for a easy kill to kill, chaining crits advantage on some maps. using these with a steak guarantees results making these difficult to deal with, whith only having a -20% fire rate this is easily forgotten in terms of attack and health.

gloves of running. not much here to say other than the speed advantage, ive seen plenty of scortching and rage heavys running faster than scouts. while this is not really that big a deal the staks mini crits make the -25% nerf null/void. the only drawback on these i can see is taking minicrits but with 400 hp as a heavy the speed hp and damage potential make this a scout with health and more.


using the above methods with the perks mentioned in the first post about scout, the mechanics can work almost the same. the biggest thing about the heavy tho is that the steak regens faster and lasts longer than the cola does. this can be a problem at times dealing with a crit boosted toxic or a vampiric heavy that wont die.


stock/no stat weapons- im not sure if i have seen these stats correctly but weapons like the pan,staff,and sign seem to have a afaster attack speed by the fists maybe not by much but it feels like a improvement over stock fists.


the sandwhich,the steak, and the chocolate- while these 3 food items are ment to help the user ive noticed the dont function at all the way they are supposed to. they can all be picked up and used to restore health. most server i play on the sandvich is the only one that can regen health (while the chocolate buffs hp)
and the steak only grats crits. making all these food items do almost the same thing the mini crits become favored thus making the heavy a portable healthkit. this is good but its also annoying, every now and then some kid comes in the server and thinks its cute to throw sandviches at teh survivors. gaining50-100 hp this is a problem with the rate at which they respawn/the ability to be thrown and picked up by everyone.


spy in next post.

spy, knives and hiding.


out of all the zombies the spy is the most under powered yet over powered. alot of the weapons and watches he uses are banned and for good reason, whith a smaller ammount of time that the watches can be used.
but the cloak and dagger is something i feel is broken. the average player with cloak and run only to halfway uncloak in front of survivors, yet experienced players crouch want walk forward. for some reason this makes the time for being cloaked last longer while the regen on it slows down the timer. while not able to pick up amo to refil the watch this become a mechanic all its own with leap, as leaping does not take from the timer while moving.


spycycle/vanilaknifes- almost every knife in the mod has been rediced to "vanilla" stats but this isnt so with the spycycle, just like the holiday punch it still functions like its supposed to granting 2 second immunity to fire. i cant say it kills silently but it dunctions in a way that gives spy a edge over pyros (not by much)

when spy is used with just about any perk it functions the same. since most of his weapons are the same i cant say anything gives him a advantage. but combined with swarming or hunter and a spy cant stay down and survivors are ALWAYS at risk.

when combined with leap this saves time with the watch aswell as give a movement that in largemaps gives spy a advantage.

using vampiric even the worst spy can poke their way to victory

i really dont ahve much else to say about the spy since theres no real other way to play him in zf hes just teh same play style no matter how you look at him either from increased movment or hp regen.


given the zombie team is pretty much covered i will start working on the survivors team tomorrow, from what ive posted you can make your own judgment suggestions/critiques

The white wizard claims this spot

so today i will touch up on the survivors weapons and perks like i did the zombie team, but instead of starting with the obvious classes i will start at the bottom least selected and work my way up. these will point out the under powered and over powered parts of each class the best i can starting with in my opinion the weakest survivor class.

sniper-the only time i ever see sniper used is on maps like desertyard, policestation, and the the map helmsdeep.
the problem with the class is that he is situational on his weapons. the most i see people use is wise. even with his back items (darwins danger shield and the razorback)the only thing to protect from is a spy. and even then spys already have to backstab 2 times in order to make a kill the razorback only adds 1 extra stab prevention while the danger shield, while give 25 extra hp makes the user more vulnerable to combustables. this isnt normally a issue as a combustable is easy to spot. but when some one else is shooting around the sniper the can almost get destroyed by 1 combustable. the cozy camper even with the health regen seems useless to alot of people in this game mode. with 1 hp per second its nothing game changing. the back itemws need a heavy overhaul

the knives that the sniper has to use are a risk to the sniper aswell, anything other thant stock requires low hp or has a weakness to fire. anything other than stock becomes a risk. jarate bushwacka for example. a sniper could throw the jarate to get that instant crit. but waiting for the jarate leaves a sniper vulnerable to being able to put themselves out if a scortching comes along. i feel like while the sniper doesnt really have banned weapons but just like the spy, you are reduced to a gimiky/routine playstyle his lack of weapons and low hp make him the easiest target  for zombies, i know i could have brought ubb the huntsman or the smgs, but they arent that used for the low amo clips or the unrelyable arrows speed (even thow the hitboxs are huge and its the best sniper main for hallways and close quarters) not saying its a bad class to use tho, but its by far the weakest/most situational. people who main snipers or play them in the zf mod tend to rage early and leave the server while the ones more used to the server tend to avoid the lass altogether. the only real thing i have to say about this class in a negitive way is ive seen some crack shots using wise to get instant kills by headshot. while this can depend on player skill you can never tell when some one is using a aimbot thats headshot you after running right around a corner.


medic-one class that has more utility and use than people would realize, not the weakest but not the strongest.
with the change to the amputator lately Ive seen alot of people maining it as the saw to use, the +3 hp  per second stacked with medics natural healing (when not using the blutsauger) forgives damage taken. i myself have used this to bait zombies while using the wise perk to buff up the defense stat only to turn around and kill them to gain attack bonus. ive seen this class used in a multitude of ways using different load outs survive as the last man through some broken mechanic or method.

using zenlike with the ubersaw to instant kill while gaining uber with heals that ignore the blutsaugers hp Regen nerf.

using athletic with the medics speed makes him faster than any of the zombies, the added rate of fire makes the ubersaw deadly in teh sense that gaining ubers faster while doing less damage to a zombie makes it easy to survive  without helping other survivors or contributing at all.

wise in combination with the blutsauger and quick fix wit the help of either the ubersaw/amputator forgives any damage taken with health returns given that the blutsauger does not reload and acts like a flamethrower for medics.  considering each hit gives back 3 hp and the damage from each syringe is effected by wise this makes gaining health while kills incredibly easy, and when the medic needs to popping a uber to save themselves is no problem, after they need to refill it picking off weaker zombies while running from a group this makes it extremely difficult when the ubersaw starts 1 shotting zombies based on a damage bonus. while resourceful is not wise the added healing/amo gain along with the health and amo pick ups being used to increase attack/defense in some ways makes it harder than fighting a wise medic. this also becomes a bigger issue when a medic and just deploy a medigun while still building his 1st uber to collect and gain from assists. ive seen it happen before when a medic gets to a certain point they go all rambo.

one other perk i can think of that makes medic a huge threat is a friend medic. i have done this as well as have to fight against it. the 66% attack right at the start attached to a soldier or demo makes this a never ending damage source coming from a pocket that is constantly healing through passive healing, uber healing, weapon healing, and the perks passive healing. when combined with another resourceful or another friend medics can become a terror to have to fight against.

a few things the medic has that are sorely underpowered is his medigun teh vaccinator and the crusaders crossbow. while the mdeigun funcctions like a snipers huntsman the inability to headshot makes this weapon more unreliable in a tight situation. having less amo and a slow fire rate this makes its "damage over distance" and ability to heal team mates seem useless.
the medigun itself is something of uselessness as its only function of providing resistances to bullets,explosive damage or fire. the slower uber build rate and and its near unrelyability its frowned apon in zf. i have seen (and done so myself ) soldiers or demos flee from the medic to no have to carry or watch out for a medic that cant heal aswell or do anything. this medigun needs to be reworked or banned alltogether from zf for being so useless.


the engineer- used mostly for defense i have seen engis become stronger than soldiers thru unorthadox methods to gain attack bonus or a advantage. while the amo nerf to the sentry and the inability to upgrade have kept this class fair, taking perks like friend with other engis or wise makes the sentry really powerful, the attack bonus stacks with the sentry giving the engi a sort of focus no spread shotgun at times that auto aims. using the gunslinger while having reduced amo and a over time detention this gives the frontier justice a direct upgrade. setting a mini sentry for 100 metal rather than a permanent one to refill give guaranteed crits, which are then used to increase stats only to repeat the process. when using resourceful as well this makes metal Regen and hp Regen unusual for engi as he can keep laying sentrys.

the engis weakness however isnt his sentry going away over time but how little amo the sentry really has. when a new play joins and decideds to be engi they try to build a dispenser to help with the amo situation when the realization that no health or amo is given it seems redundant that a sentry has to be taken care of so much. given the fact there is a perk just designed to disable the engis sentry this takes away all his versitility with no way to combat it other than to kill the magnetic zombie this can be difficult in small areas that a engi may not have acces to or if they are on the other side of a wall. this makes the engi almost entirely dependant on his team.

the one benifit a engi has is the knock back his sentry already provides, combining his sentry with nonlethal forgoes damage for a huge knock back on maps like cliff where zombies are trying to climb up a mountain, but this can also really hurt when in tight spaces sending a zombie into a corner where they cant move as 4 damage chips away at them making for a easy target.



pyro-im not sure what all can be said for the pyro in zf that hasnt been said before in other games. having a reduced amo count on his flame throwers may not seem like much but compaired to other classes he has the least ammount of amo and is always looking for more. when using resourcful this give him a advantage of always being able to pick up amo for attack/deffense bonus and encouraging the use of the back scratcher to gain even more hp on pack pick up. when no medic is present the back scratcher can be called one of the go to weapons with almost NO downside. the added attack and +50% health from packs on wearer make this a statstick or a overpowered weapon when combined with zenlike or wise on maze or other maps with "hidden rooms" that only have 1 intrance.

one thing  that im surprised is still in this mod is the degreaser/axetingusher combo. this still does its normal 195 damage, while scorching would normally make a zombie immune to a pyros flame thrower it still counts as a instant kill when being hit with the axetinguisher. this is somewhatunfair and broken as a perk that would help get past the pyros fire but since its technically "on fire" a unlock weapon destroys these zombies.

the only weapon a pyro has that ahs any form of balance is the powerjack stranly enough, while making the user faster and giving 75 hp on kill it has a 20% damage vulnerability added. this can be over looked if deffence gets high enough but this weapon can become overpowered with zenlink in "hidden rooms" giving health back along with a stacking regen and crits or with wise when the upside out weighs the downside and forgives damage taken.
the only real useless weapon the pyro has is situational at best for water maps where the phrase "pyroshark" comes in. other than that the sign is one of the 2 useless weapons. im not even going to get into the sharpend volcano fragment since its already so incredibly under powered.

on of the major flaws of the pyro is the amo it has, since the flame thrower runs out of amo quickly this incourages the use of a axtinguisher to make kills thus upgrading all to quickly. this keeps airblasts down which makes me confused as to why the pyros most veritile weapon has a amo nerf.

the only thing pyro has going for it is as far as i can tell the most weapons to get faster kills, the flaregun crits on zombies already set on fire, while the reserve shooter minicrits airblasted zombies the latter being used in smaller games since airblast uses 1/5 the amo a flamer is allowed.




in my next post i will talk abou the most commonly used classes soldier and demo and break them down a little more that i did these survivors.

so this will be the final post on this pointing out the weakness and stregths of the survivors weapo/perk combos.
this section covers the 2 most commonly used survivors demo and soldier.

starting with the demo- he is by far the most versatile in play styles, having the option to go demoknight with boots shield and sword or go grenade launcher sticky and mele weapon, or even hybrid by going grenade shield and sword.

one of his most over powered features is the eyelander. for each head taken he gains hp back that he lost along with a small spead buff. this may not seem like much at first but given the situation of using a perk that gives damage bonus (juggernaut, wise, zenlike,resourceful,selfless,friend,stircrazy) this encourages the use of demoknighting. the targe makes this a good shield to use for its resistance bonus to combustables or scorching as well as 1 shotting combustables through instant mele kills due to the -100% def stat. this immediatly builds heads and attack. being a unlock this is the obvious choice for most people to go.
using this with perks like zenlike or holy make it really easy for a demo to get kills in "hidden room" hiding places where theres only 1 entrance or crouching is forced anyway.

same for the persian persuader  while not gaining extra health or speed this makes resourcful a prime focus while playing a demo knight, by giving the ability to pick up amo as health this allows a demoknight who would normally not be able to pick up amo but use it to convert into a free attack or deffense bonus, the sword itself encourages more charging aswell and using the splendid screen this builds for quick attack damage, example: a demoknight with no extra attack or deffense at the start of the round charges into a heavy, does around 60-80 damage, then using the crit given from teh charge either finishes off the heavy or ends teh heavy in 1 more attack. using resourceful this makes it simple to get quick kills and regen health while picking up packs for bonus's


hybrid builds.

one common thing i have learned while using the load out of loch n load,spledid screen, persian persuader and wise is that due to the lochs 1 shot on scouts already the splash damage it gives can give me the advantage of 30% attack power at the start of a match against 3-4 zombies. things like this give players a advantage over pure demoknight builds adding the ranged attack they are missing to still gain attack and deffense/heal,ive even had amo return while using the persian and loch just by getting kills with the loch. the same can be done with any sword/shield/grenade launcher.


explosive based demo. on maps like egypt mansion where protecting 1 critical entrance from zombies is important the sticky launcher is god. this can be said for any game mod but when it comes to control points zombies have no choice but to become fodder and sacrifice themselves for some footing since they cant destroy them themselves, a good example is degroot keep where the zombies HAVE to get the control points to get to the survivors, a demo is bound to (no matter the perk) wreck the zombies that get near it, if using wise this only feeds the demo and makes him stronger with no effort what so ever. if survivors have to cap a point demo (and soldier) have a tool just designed for that, since the pain train counts as 2 people on a capture point like a scout even if there is a 10% bullet vulnerability that is very unlikly to be effective for zombies,since thieving does so little damage with so little amo,i wouldnt even worry about it, making this a straight upgrade from stock if your not using a sword, unlike most other mele weapons the ability to crit is enabled, giving it a clear lead over stock weapons.


because the demo has resistance with both his shields and even afterburn its easily the most forgiving class even without a perk the upsides to the demo have little to no downsides given the most utility even more than the soldier (defensively) with enough damage dealing weapons to forgive demo for any mistakes.





and finally the soldier.

im going to start with listing his weapons and there stats.


the black box  on hit +15 health
-25% clip

the cow mangler doesn not require ammo
alt fire a charged shot that mini crits players sets them on fire and disables buildings
no random critical hits
deals only 20% damage to buildings
cannot be crit boosted

the direct hit +25% damage bonus
+80% projectile speed
minicrits targets launched airborne by explosions
-70% explosion radius

beggars bazooka
hold fire to load up to three rockets
release fire to unleash the barrage
+3 degrees random projectile deviation
overloading the chamber will cause a missfire
no amo from dispensers

liberty launcher
+40% projectile speed
-25% damage from rocket jumps
-25% damage penalty

each one of these forgives the soldier in some way shape or form, we have gotten the rescourcful perk nerfed recently because when used with the blackbox healing was absurd, those who defended it where mostly donors who where always survivors and people who never liked having a possibility of dieing.

the cowmangler which would normally not be crit boosted or randomly crit can be crit boosted by perks like zenlike or any other perk that gives crits, when paired on a map like degroot keep hiding on the accesable ledge and point b makes the soldier almost unkillable, and since it has no need for amo there is no reason to get down or leave when crouching to regain health and crits is eaiser to do.

while i dont see as many people use the direct hit or the liberty launcher ive seen on occasion the beggers be used in corridors and hallways obliterate a horde of zombies. the splash damge from 3 rockets spread out can take out a heavy with no place to run.


now moving onto the secondaires.

the 2 weapons

the reserve shooter
the only benifit i can see is the faster weapon switch, i never hardly see this on soldiers anymore as is.
the righteous bison
this is another example of what i stated about the cow mangler, removes the need to get amo and promotes camping with a perk to get a advantage


bags/boots
buff banner
the rewards damage done giving teh soldier (and allies) more damage engis sentries get teh boost just from the engi getting it with what ever chosen perk is attached, this rewards something a survivor should be able to do but gives stat gaining health giving perks more power.

battalion backup
not as commonly used but end up giving soldiers 20 extra health, ontp of damage reduction. this can be good when fighting a crit cola scout or raging heavy but also padds out deffinsive perks ontop of what the perk would already give.

concheror
the most commonly used for soldiers now, passive health regen with a speed buff and health on damage. when using resourceful or blackbox or both it becomes a torrent of health even speeds healing to be more than a medics passive healing when using zenlike.

mantreads-absolutly useless to anyone in zombies not only is landing these already hard but roaring or knock back is only a situational thing.

gunboats- when used with liberty launcher this promotes a playstyle of rocket jumping with the gardener, only seen it once but a soldier jumping around laning hits that are instant kills in zombies is hard enough when trying to land hits on him, making leap the only hope or cleavers. problem with that is scouts fly past their target and spys have a hard time stabing/backstabing air targets. not really that big of a deal seeing its hardly ever a issue or used.

melee  weapons.
since most other weapons are stock reskins ill really only cover 1
the pain train. a straight upgrade to mele for soldier and demo like i said before all the upside downside taken away in zf.

most other weapons like the equalizer or escape plan or market gardner are hardly ever used in mele situations since the damage from rockets combined with perks is usueally enough to kill a zombie or 3 this is where thats all i have to say about his melee, unlike demo his main strengths lie in his rocket launchers and his backbacks, 9 out of 10 times all you see is black box and conch or black box and shotgun. this is fine except that he has TOO much offense and just enough health/deffense to pad out hits and survive, his added rocket jumping ability make it unpredictable on open area maps for zombies to get a solid strategy out and it ends up just following him teh best they can while getting blown away.



what these classes and perks need the most out of anything is not a weapon or perk nerf but a blanace update. we need admins to play with us in our server to see all of these things for themselves, ive played on the server for a little over 2 years, i remember when the half zatoichi was finally banned because of wise and zenlike demos.
admins heard us then and stepped in. but since then alot of weapons have been changed by valve and we need some balance or tweaking. one side doesnt need to destroy the other 9 out of 10 times it should be equal, fun, and based on player skill not just who has the better perk and load out.


if anyone has anything to add or say any comment would be helpful.