Saxton Hell Forums
Server Discussion => PropHunt Hell => Topic started by: HipsterGlaceon on July 03, 2012, 08:40:46 pm
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Please Note: I do not know prior to this if any of the Saxton Hell admins can actually change the Prophunt loadout settings, as, to my knowledge, they did not create the mod itself.
It's come to my attention that a few of the new weapons along with an old weapon are very cheap/annoying for Prophunt.
Reserve Shooter
Suggestion - Take it out
Reason - When props run away, they jump a lot. The Reserve Shooter already gets mini-crits on them as they jump, and has an extra shot compared to the normal shotgun.
Beggar's Bazooka
Suggestion - Take it out
Reason - It take 2-3 rockets to kill a scout, and fires extremely fast while the 3 rockets can be preloaded into the chamber.
Rainblower
Suggestion - Nerf Self-Damage
Reason - Yes, the taunt is able to kill, and yes, it can be spammed, but aside it's just a reskin.
Thanks for considering these for change, and feel free to comment/suggest more changes (if they can be implemented).
~Glaceon
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>and has an extra shot compared to the normal shotgun.
It has 7 shots in PH?
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Prophunt Hell it only has 3 shots per clip.
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>and has an extra shot compared to the normal shotgun.
It has 7 shots in PH?
regular shotgun is nerfed to two shots in PH, reserve shooter has 3 for some odd reason
I agree about the bazooka and the reserve shooter for sure, and it would be nice if the rainblower's self damage was lowered to the normal rate of the vanilla flamethrower.
I feel like bottom line it's almost impossible to "balance" this game from a red vs blue standpoint, since props cannot shoot until there is only one left. The real "balance" to maintain is on blue team only for the most part, since people with the more powerful weapons get more kills. The other day when the item server went down everyone had to play vanilla pyro and there was a much more even distribution of points throughout blue team. So its about not letting one hunter get an unfair advantage over the other hunters through the use of ridiculous weapons (a la Beggar's Bazooka, 2 rockets = instadeath).
All that being said, these are only minor grievances and since prophunt is a mostly casual game no one's really raging about this. It would just be nice for those of us who frequent the server more often if these changes were considered.
I just hope no one gets their jimmies rustled over it, especially the people who care so much about the rankings system over at gamingmasters.co.uk
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Prophunt exposes a config file that lets us change weapon damage around, so balancing is a definite possibility.
I'll see what I can do given all these suggestions.
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Thanks Voided!
I really hope more people start posting here, I'd like to hear more opinions.
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I suggest learning to cope with the mod the way it is. This discussion has been brought up many times over at Gaming Masters, and dealt with accordingly. The creators have felt that the Reserve Shooter is fine the way it is, and there are plenty of other factors to help balance out the mod.
Given the load of new weapons from the Pyro update, I'm sure there will be some additions to the nerf/remove list, however given that this mod is kinda dead I wouldn't hold your breath on anything immediate. PH has been around for a long time, so my tip is to learn and become better.
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Box does bring up a good point. If everyone has access to the same weapons, then you could assume its fair to everyone. Something to take note of, however, is that there are server specific settings that can be changed by the admins, including weapon bans/nerfs/etc. The guy who made the prophunt mod wrote it that way for a reason, so that admins could alter settings on their server with discretion. I saw one not too long ago that had sniper rifles, spies and medigun medics. It was not a ranked server, though.
I'm not saying we should remove the reserve shooter, by any means. but all you have to do is spend about 5 minutes in Prophunt Hell to hear people complaining about it. what's important is how we treat the contempt for it, you know? Should we fix it so its easier for the people complaining, or should we leave it the way it is and tell them to deal with it? Does it come down to what the community wants as a whole, or is it solely the admins decision? Like voided said the configuration for the server allows for the specific removal of certain weapons and other things, so it's something to think and discuss about.
a good example of a weapon that has compatibility issues with prophunt is the new bazooka. one charged shot of two rockets instantly kills a scout. Imagine if everyone on blue went soldier and used this weapon. The gameplay would cease to be enjoyable. Obviously its a hypothetical situation and that will never happen, but it is analogous on a smaller scale.
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For now I've disabled the Beggar's Bazooka and I believe I've made the rainblower do normal self damage.
Given the controversial nature of the reserve shooter, I've left it alone for now.
The one question I have is: If the reserve shooter is so powerful, is there any reason a player would choose the regular shotgun over it?
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The only reason I see someone not using the Reserve Shooter is when they don't have it themselves. When comparing the Reserve Shooter to the default shotgun for use in prophunt, there are no downsides. The Shooter mini crits when a target is in midair -- a constant escaping attribute in prophunt -- and has an extra bullet per clip when compared to the stock weapon.
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Yeah I'm not sure about the reserve shooter. Seems like a direct upgrade to me.
In other news though, someone on AlliedModders posted a prophunt config with the following changes:
-Pomson 6000 added with normal shotgun settings.
-Phlogistinator added with normal flamethrower settings.
-Beggar's Bazooka added with normal rocket launcher settings.
-Lollichop added with the normal fire axe's settings.
-Rainblower added with normal flamethrower settings.
-Cleaner's Carbine disabled.
-Hitman's Heatmaker disabled.
-Festive weapons added with proper weapon restrictions in place.
-Newer weapons not mentioned above has been added but with no changes other than being listed.
What are everyone's opinions with merging this config into ours? I'm hesitant to make any drastic changes since we are running an official ranked version, and I'd rather get everyone's input first.
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I agree with those settings except with the Bazooka. Sure, normal rocket damage would be nice, but it can shoot 3 in a quick burst. Still seems a little unbalanced but it could always be tested with how it plays out.
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i like all those except the bazooka
youre the best voided
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I highly suggest sticking to whatever is set by GM so that this server doesn't turn out to be the giant pile of shit that is SourceOP.com's prophunt. If you have to toil at all I'd suggest it would be for removing the new weapons which have yet to be reviewed by GM. If people have a problem say with Reserve Shooter, keep in mind it was already voted upon/dealt with accordingly months and months ago. Don't upset the habitat of the mod otherwise.
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I suppose I'll leave it as-is for now. I do like the idea of keeping the mod how it was originally made rather than mess with how it affect ranked game play. If there are any specific weapons you guys would like me to remove, I'd be happy to do that.
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protip : I used that new minigun a bit, mlg review :
- Although it can 3 shot a scout, It does 10 damage to self every bullet, and shoots 10 bullets a second, meaning you can shoot for 3 seconds only without dying.
- You can't keep it held down for the hacker speed boost thing, as it uses all your ammo on that fire range thing (I have not seen it be effective once at all)
maybe nerf the damage a bit, to props and self
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Well better post this sooner than later.
Weapon: AWPer Hand
Reason: It's just a reskin of the original rifle. The stock isn't allowed so why should it be?
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The AWP should be blocked next map change, thanks.
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How/is this being handled officially on GM's side?
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GM's Prophunt hasn't been updated since MvM yet, but this is a reskin of the original. There is no reason why it shouldn't be banned.
Also, Voided, it has come to my attention from several people that have played on the GM servers that the Reserve Shooter is banned on there. Since their PH isn't updated yet, there is no official way to check at the moment, but everyone I've asked that knew said it was banned.
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RESERVE SHOOTER SO GOOD BEST WEPON EVER
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reserve shooter buff pls?
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Reserve Shooter
Suggestion - Take it out = OF CORSE c:
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Awareness of new botkiller weapons.
The Botkiller weapons are not banned in the server, but their stock counterparts are.
List of weapons:
Strange Botkiller Stickybomb Launcher
Strange Gold Botkiller Stickybomb Launcher
Strange Botkiller Medi Gun
Strange Gold Botkiller Medi Gun
Strange Botkiller Sniper Rifle
Strange Gold Botkiller Sniper Rifle
Please take them out.
Thanks! :D
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Done. Those weapons should be banned now.
Also, I hopped on GM's prophunt server, and the reserve shooter is still allowed there.
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Also, I hopped on GM's prophunt server, and the reserve shooter is still allowed there.
Therefore, should be allowed at SH. :)
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GM doesn't allow the Hitman's Heatmaker sniper rifle, we need it banned on our side too.
Edit: Wait, why do we have to follow GM's server config line by line anyway?
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LEIK, RESERVE SHOOTER IS TEH BEST, WE SHOULD BUFF IT MORE AND SHET.
On a more serious note, I would very much like to see the Reserve Shooter at the very least nerfed to an acceptable level. Seeing it removed would have me dancing naked on the streets yelling "Thank you God! I believe in you now!"
Ahem. Looking over the forums on GM, it seems it was nerfed to do 75% of its regular damage (http://www.gamingmasters.org/threads/prophunt-suggestions-and-changes.3195/page-90#post-92022). Also, they seem to go mostly by what unlucky_ducky updates for their configs (http://www.gamingmasters.org/threads/update-log.3034/page-22#post-118642). Looking through both that config and the newest one (https://forums.alliedmods.net/showpost.php?p=1781298&postcount=884) that was posted, and providing I'm reading it correctly, it seems to match up;
"name" "The Reserve Shooter"
"item_name" "#TF_ReserveShooter"
"propername" "1"
"damage_hunters" "0.75"
Hopefully I'm correct in thinking this is what a nerf to a weapon is.
However, the issue of mini-crits against airborne enemies still stands. I'm just going to assume that it has yet to be taken out because it only provides those mini-crits for three seconds after being switched to the weapon, which doesn't seem like harm at first. Though, those three seconds do make quite a difference in PH, and using the Degreaser alongside the Reserve Shooter makes it easy to switch back to the weapon. Constant mini-crits on those poor props.
It would also appear our community is not the only one that wants it removed (http://www.gamingmasters.org/threads/prophunt-suggestions-and-changes.3195/page-100#post-122231). Looking through the GM forums, seems people have been wanting it removed since, well, it was added. Really don't understand why it hasn't been yet.
Believe me, I'm all for keeping the mod as it was originally intended, especially now that this server is ranked. However, there are times when it is painfully obvious something should be changed. That is, after all, the reason the option to change things around was given. If they wanted other servers to follow exactly what they do, they would not have given anyone the choice.
And, yes, I tested the Hitman's Heatmaker in their server. It is indeed banned. It would seem that any rifle that is introduced gets banned, for the only Sniper primary available is the Huntsman.
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What's interesting to note about the reserve shooter, is that we've had the damage set to 0.75 since we started.
I've banned the heatmaker.
Also, there are quite a few other weapons that the latest config you linked that differ from our version. For instance, this is the config for the Beggar's Bazooka:
"730"
{
"name" "The Beggar's Bazooka"
"item_name" "#TF_DS_DumpsterDevice"
"propername" "1"
"damage_hunters" "0.75"
}
And ours:
"730"
{
"name" "The Beggar's Bazooka"
"item_name" "#TF_DS_DumpsterDevice"
"removed_hunters" "1"
}
So we basically banned the weapon, and that other config has it enabled but at reduced damage. I'm curious to see how this is setup at GM, but I'm inclined to believe they make use of unlucky ducky's configs for the most part.
This begs questions such as: should the Cleaner's Carbine be banned? The stock SMG is, but in our config the Carbine is allowed.
Edit: Wait, why do we have to follow GM's server config line by line anyway?
Being ranked, it's more of consistency issue. Since ranks carry across GM and our server, I personally believe it's best to provide a similar playing experience here as it is there. Otherwise it would be unfair to players if they can climb the ranks higher on say, our server, than on GM.
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I still suggest taking the reserve shooter out.
It can kill props in two shots and is way too easy to use compared to other weapons.
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I've decided to bite the bullet and reduce the reserve shooter's damage down to 50%, from 75%.
This will be a step away from the direction of GM, but I'm going to favor how enjoyable the game is over ranked consistency in this case.
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That good
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I've decided to bite the bullet and reduce the reserve shooter's damage down to 50%, from 75%.
This will be a step away from the direction of GM, but I'm going to favor how enjoyable the game is over ranked consistency in this case.
#1
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I've decided to bite the bullet and reduce the reserve shooter's damage down to 50%, from 75%.
This will be a step away from the direction of GM, but I'm going to favor how enjoyable the game is over ranked consistency in this case.
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_maptssPtmE1rbim06o1_250.gif)
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still 2op reduce to -25% plz
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healing bullets plox
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A minigun spawn camping heavy is also pretty op.
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Spawn camping is pretty lame in general, dunno if I'd say that's OP though because the same gun can be used away from the CP. Adjust your strategy as to when you run for the CP and how: don't just barrel through the middle of the CP to and from.
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I'd love it if Heavies were all forced to use Shotgun and Fists. It'd make for a much fairer game.
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I've updated the prophunt config to add the proper removals/balancing changes for the new rust, blood, carbonado, and diamond botkiller weapons.
Additionally, I've merged in some changes from unlucky ducky's prophunt config (seeing how GM most likely uses it given Dark's enthusiasm about him updating it).
The relevant change that affects us: Self damage when using the heavy minigun has been increased to 2 from 1.75.
Hopefully that will make heavies a little more fair.
Also, if I missed out on some weapon and it's being allowed when it shouldn't be: please let me know!
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Thanks Void. That oughta teach em.
If not, I just dunno what to do.
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Thanks Void. That oughta teach em.
If not, I just dunno what to do.
The grown up thing: figure out better strategies and become better at the mod. Adapt to the surroundings, as its often called.
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The grown up thing: figure out better strategies and become better at the mod. Adapt to the surroundings, as its often called.
Oh, daaaaaaaaaaaaamn.
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The grown up thing: figure out better strategies and become better at the mod. Adapt to the surroundings, as its often called.
Can't help it when you do have a good spot but then a pyro finds you out and you're trying to run away to get some health and hide again. Have you not played this mode before? Obviously not.
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Troll response or do you really think I don't know/haven't played the mod before? I wouldnt be talking at all if I didn't play PH. Maybe when you leave your spot, you look ahead to see what lies there. Go into 3rd person if you need to in order to get a larger FOV. Maybe you don't head straight for the CP and instead try to grab some health packs.
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Troll response or do you really think I don't know/haven't played the mod before? I wouldnt be talking at all if I didn't play PH. Maybe when you leave your spot, you look ahead to see what lies there. Go into 3rd person if you need to in order to get a larger FOV. Maybe you don't head straight for the CP and instead try to grab some health packs.
Troll response, broski.
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Maybe when you leave your spot, you look ahead to see what lies there. Go into 3rd person if you need to in order to get a larger FOV. Maybe you don't head straight for the CP and instead try to grab some health packs.
You know just as well as I do that this isn't always true. There's plenty of maps with only one health pack besides the center control point, some of which get camped just the same as the control point, others where the health pack sits right next to the control point, and yet others where there's only one small HP pack which isn't even enough to cover flare damage regardless of afterburn or half of a perfect shotgun shot. Sometimes you're being chased by someone just as fast as you and you need the large HP boost in order to get away. Either way, it's disproportionately hard to dodge someone who's sitting right on top of where you need to be.
Also, the weapons that are mostly being discussed here - Reserve Shooter and the Heavy's miniguns - are both hitscan weapons and lag compensated and as such cannot be dodged like you can dodge flamethrower particles or flare shots. The instant whoever's wielding the weapon clicks their mouse, the hit registers - that is what is meant by hitscan - and no matter how much either of you are lagging, if the hunter shoots where he/she sees you on their screen, you will get hit - that is lag compensation.
Hitscan weapons - which include basically everything with bullets (miniguns, all shotguns, RS, all scatterguns, all pistols, and all melee weapons which actually act as a short-range ranged weapon instead of true melee) - are incredibly frustrating to play against because lag throws the balance of the weapons out the window, and that is why people are complaining about playing against them despite their damage being fairly insignificant compared to the DPS provided by the flare gun and the pyro primaries.
Also, Voided, I'm not sure if it's already available but would I be able to look at the Prop Hunt config file so I can make in informed post instead of saying "hurr, X is OP pls nerf"?
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Also, Voided, I'm not sure if it's already available but would I be able to look at the Prop Hunt config file so I can make in informed post instead of saying "hurr, X is OP pls nerf"?
Sure (http://www.privatepaste.com/db8efd0388).
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Why is pyro shotgun limited to 2 shots but soldier, engy, and heavy shotgun isn't?
Also, if there a knockback value to mess around with? I think if the heavy's minigun had less knockback as well as somewhat lower damage it would be balanced.
Currently you have it set at 75% of max damage - this means the heavy's minigun (stock) maxes out at 510*0.75 = 382.5, or more than twice the max damage of the stock flamethrower - 158 DPS - even though max DPS is nearly impossible to get. The minigun also has infinite range even though there is the steep damage drop off and bullet spread.
I'd suggest dropping the minugin damage to 30-35% and messing around with the knockback (if possible, but I think that changes automatically with the damage).
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All those numbers impressed me, Voidy do what he says
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How fucked up is our cfg gonna be compared to FreeFrag (which is back up) and Gamingmasters? Nothing fucks up a mod that shares stats, etc, with three different cfgs and three different servers. We'll hop on one for easy weapon damage, another for srs restricted damage, and another for who the fuck knows.
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SERIOUS FUCKING BUSINESS
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I don't give a shit about stats and have campaigned numerous times at GM to have them reset or dropped entirely. However, if they're gonna exist you might as well all play by the same rules, don't you think?
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However, if they're gonna exist you might as well all play by the same rules, don't you think?
That's the argument I've always used for not wanting to change the configs. I don't believe it's right to wildly differentiate between other ranked servers.
However, with certain things like reducing the RS's damage a little, I felt that that had to be done in order to make the game less of a ragefest, and I don't believe the damage reduction will contribute to that large of a skew in the stats.
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What about Flare gun getting a nerf? They're deadly as fuck.
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That's the argument I've always used for not wanting to change the configs. I don't believe it's right to wildly differentiate between other ranked servers.
However, with certain things like reducing the RS's damage a little, I felt that that had to be done in order to make the game less of a ragefest, and I don't believe the damage reduction will contribute to that large of a skew in the stats.
It's not just the configs, the three servers have a few fundamentally different settings. Our server has propmenu enabled for anyone who's donated in the past month while GM has it only enabled for "clan members", and as far as I know FFN has it only enabled for admins. On PH hell and FFN you can nominate and vote for maps (30 minute time limit) while on GM you can only vote - no nominations; the maps are also limited to 20 minutes. these small things might not seem like much but someone who has donated can attempt to run our server through a circuit of small "point-farming" maps while giving themselves the best props - a combination of advantages that you cannot get on either of the other two servers. The only other differences that I could think of is PH hell attempts to block players from joining spectator while GM doesn't and GM limits red dead, spectator, and blue dead chat from being seen to living players on the other team.
The minigun damage decrease might seem like a large change but in effect it wouldn't be - heavy is limited to two hunters at a time and often times one of them is playing a "troll" loadout such as taunt heavy or holiday punch. However, the current damage that one competent (read: not brain-dead) heavy can do while sitting on the control point or one good (read: knows how to find props even if they can't do much else) heavy can do roaming limits your options of survival to "don't be near the heavy," which is not always something you can do. Even at 50% damage dropoff range a heavy with average to above-average tracking can kill a scout in roughly a second which isn't much especially after you take into account the large amount of knockback that all heavy primaries do.
There are other differences - while Voided has been keeping the PH config updated with the updates, the new botkillers have not been blacklisted yet - and I think the old ones and AWPer hand haven't been either. Hell, I'm not even sure if the strange festives have been blocked yet - they weren't last time I went festive sniping over there. Another difference is that the speed boosts on a fully boosted heavy apply to his spun up speed as well as his normal walking speed (good on you for fixing that here :) ). While these changes have - arguably - had a bigger effect on the game than small changes, like a minigun, flare gun, or axetinguisher rebalance would, the configs are already different and I see no reason not to change them more if a significant portion of the community thinks it is a good idea - the only arguments I've heard from you are "we shouldn't change from GM" and "I have no problem dealing with these things so you shouldn't either," but we all know you're probably the best prop hunter there is, and if I might add: one of the best scouts I've had the pleasure of playing with.
Also, Voided, even although this is somewhat off topic for the OP weapons thread, would you consider making a trial admin for the prop hunt server (much like Pho on the jump server) so we don't always have to come crying to you every time there's one person ghosting or something?
Finally, if you must have the vanilla GM prop hunt experience, you could always go play a few round on GM, isn't that right, box? ;)
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Today I learned that Prophunt is serious fucking business and is not to be taken lightly.
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I can guarantee you there's a small set of people that feel the same way about your favorite game type that we do about prop hunt. Everything is serious business to some people.
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Every time I die/lose as blue, I cut holes in my ankle with a rusty knife, and rip off a fingernail.
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I'm also on the side of thinking the Heavy and Soldier shotguns need to be nerfed down to the pyro shotgun status. Heavy has the minigun going for him and any good soldier can rocket jump and spray 6 shotgun bullets at a time to do massive damage.
Engie, well, it's an engie. He has a melee and a shotgun. Nothing really else going for him there.
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Engie can punch bitches, most op class in prophunt pls remove.
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LEAVE BRITNEY* ALONE!!!
*class weapon damage
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What about Flare gun getting a nerf? They're deadly as fuck.
Flare gun is deadly, yes, but considering you can track it through the air it is relatively easy to dodge, except for the flame-flare combo which is similar to the axtinguisher combo, except you can live through it (as I have experienced as prop and hunter many times). If you're getting hit a lot as a prop just practice jumping and weaving instead of just running in straight lines. That's just my opinion, and yes this is a bit late.
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Suggestion: Either limit the sticky jumper to one sticky out at a time (still allows air pogo) or tell people that "Hey, if there's a demoman flying at your face, you should probably stop sitting in spawn and start running away." On nearly every map that's not indoors, a demo can 2-sticky right to the red spawn and pick up kills on a good portion of the red team before any pyros, and in some situations, even soldiers, can get there. I don't think it's a fault with the sticky jumper so much as a fault that new players all love to hide right in red spawn and don't know to run from anything besides pyros, but until there's some form of tutorial - I'm not even sure how this would be implemented, if at all - it's the only fix I can think of.
Also, I'm not sure if this is even possible, but is there a way to (easily) un lag-compensate weapons that kill in one hit? I've got no problem with being hit by an axetinguisher or something similar but when it appears that they missed by 15-20 feet to everyone but the guy with the weapon, it becomes a little bit frustrating. List of weapons like this: axetinguisher, postal pummeler, market gardener, ullapool caber (this one's especially frustrating because there's no prerequisite to hitting you with it like the others), and any demoman melee weapon during a charge n' targe or splendid screen charge.
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Suggestion: Either limit the sticky jumper to one sticky out at a time (still allows air pogo) or tell people that "Hey, if there's a demoman flying at your face, you should probably stop sitting in spawn and start running away." On nearly every map that's not indoors, a demo can 2-sticky right to the red spawn and pick up kills on a good portion of the red team before any pyros, and in some situations, even soldiers, can get there. I don't think it's a fault with the sticky jumper so much as a fault that new players all love to hide right in red spawn and don't know to run from anything besides pyros, but until there's some form of tutorial - I'm not even sure how this would be implemented, if at all - it's the only fix I can think of.
Also, I'm not sure if this is even possible, but is there a way to (easily) un lag-compensate weapons that kill in one hit? I've got no problem with being hit by an axetinguisher or something similar but when it appears that they missed by 15-20 feet to everyone but the guy with the weapon, it becomes a little bit frustrating. List of weapons like this: axetinguisher, postal pummeler, market gardener, ullapool caber (this one's especially frustrating because there's no prerequisite to hitting you with it like the others), and any demoman melee weapon during a charge n' targe or splendid screen charge.
Is this what you mean? http://forums.saxtonhell.com/index.php?topic=163.0 (http://forums.saxtonhell.com/index.php?topic=163.0)
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Is this what you mean? [url]http://forums.saxtonhell.com/index.php?topic=163.0[/url] ([url]http://forums.saxtonhell.com/index.php?topic=163.0[/url])
No, this (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Hitscan (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Hitscan)) and this (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Lag_compensation (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Lag_compensation)).
Hitscan weapon damage is dealt client side rather than server side so it depends completely on that the attacking player sees rather than where players actually are in the game. This is what people are actually complaining about when they complain about the various pyro/heavy/soldier/engie/etx shotguns. The shotgun cannot be dodged in any meaningful way because dodges are usually quick movements that will not have registered on the attacker's computer by the time they take the shot. It's also why I complain so much about getting axed. Short of a perfectly timed (~50-80 ms window, can go higher depending on the attacker's ping) jump over their head, you're dead in one hit. Dodging hitscan weapons depends on the attacker being bad at aiming rather than you being good at dodging, and when one team can't shoot back, takes a good deal of fun out of the game.
Lag compensation increases the leeway you have when using hitscan weapons to make shots. It's partially why laggy players stutter rather than just playing X milliseconds in the past - the game's trying to give them the real-time game footage but their connection can't process the information fast enough to display it. It's also the cause of long range melee hits - I'm not sure if you were there but I was playing with Luve the other day and she hit me with a rake a full half second after I turned a corner on both of our screens. It's an extreme example, but I'm sure you've seen it at work. Those articles above explain it better than I can.
Hitscan and lag-compensation are both designed to help with hit registration for laggy players at the expense of a little frustration on the part of players with good ping. When they implemented this, there were no weapons that could kill anyone in one hit save for the spy knife and sniper rifle. Now, there are.
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Hitscan weapon damage is dealt client side rather than server side so it depends completely on that the attacking player sees rather than where players actually are in the game. This is what people are actually complaining about when they complain about the various pyro/heavy/soldier/engie/etx shotguns.
That's not how it works. The source engine is entirely server authoritative. The server keeps a history of game frames so that when a client attacks with a hitscan weapon, the server will rewind to the frame that they fired at, given their latency, and figure out if the attack hit and how much damage it did. It's this rewind action that people are actually complaining about.
Given that, there's nothing that can be done about it. Latency is a fact of life.
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That's not how it works. The source engine is entirely server authoritative. The server keeps a history of game frames so that when a client attacks with a hitscan weapon, the server will rewind to the frame that they fired at, given their latency, and figure out if the attack hit and how much damage it did. It's this rewind action that people are actually complaining about.
Given that, there's nothing that can be done about it. Latency is a fact of life.
Ah, I believe I should have said hit detection, not damage is determined by the client's perspective, in that case. Is there anything besides a semantic difference between saying hit detection is determined by the client's perspective and that the server rewinds the game frames?
Either way, sucks that it can't be fixed. I don't think any of those weapons themselves are OP, it's just extremely frustrating to be killed by something that, to the best of your abilities, you dodged.
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Is there anything besides a semantic difference between saying hit detection is determined by the client's perspective and that the server rewinds the game frames?
No, but,
client side
specifically implies that the client is telling the server when and how much damage it did. There are a few games that use this method. Crysis and it's awful client authoritative networking comes to mind (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbbPtZbI9ZI).
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Soldier shotgun OPness is too damn high!
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/210699/thumbs/s-THE-RENT-IS-TOO-DAMN-HIGH-JIMMY-MCMILLAN-large.jpg)
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If at all, is there a way to reduce minigun knock-back so that props can still run despite taking damage? I often find that when hit by a minigun when trying to run or in tye middle of a jump that I get shoved to the nearest wall and then get stuck there because you cannot run with mini-gun spray in your face?
Damage dealt is not an issue for me although if possible the Long-Heater's charge up (fire-ring) attack could deal damage to the player if possible (not sure if it does already though)
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If at all, is there a way to reduce minigun knock-back so that props can still run despite taking damage? I often find that when hit by a minigun when trying to run or in tye middle of a jump that I get shoved to the nearest wall and then get stuck there because you cannot run with mini-gun spray in your face?
Damage dealt is not an issue for me although if possible the Long-Heater's charge up (fire-ring) attack could deal damage to the player if possible (not sure if it does already though)
I THINK that knockback is tied directly to the weapon's damage. It's why the rocket launchers besides the jumper have awful jumping, why the scattergun has more knockback against jarated players than normap players, and why the crit flares deal more knockback than normal flares.
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I THINK that knockback is tied directly to the weapon's damage. It's why the rocket launchers besides the jumper have awful jumping, why the scattergun has more knockback against jarated players than normap players, and why the crit flares deal more knockback than normal flares.
Yep. Physics force is scaled by the amount of physical damage done.
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One reason I don't like the minigun is that it is spray damage. You could compare it to a flamethrower with much longer range.
And while you can't fire it for very long under normal circumstances, you can either go find ammo/health or have an engie build a dispenser for you.
That's why the minigun can be an unfair advantage. The heavy can spray all over and find people.
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One reason I don't like the minigun is that it is spray damage. You could compare it to a flamethrower with much longer range.
And while you can't fire it for very long under normal circumstances, you can either go find ammo/health or have an engie build a dispenser for you.
That's why the minigun can be an unfair advantage. The heavy can spray all over and find people.
The way miniguns and flamethrowers work is completely different - the minigun is hitscan and the flame thrower is treated as a projectile.
If the heavy sprays all over and finds me (which has only happened once), I (as well as anyone who knows what getting hit means) will be out of there before the heavy can come over to me, assuming he even knows what he hit. If he does somehow catch up to me, he probably won't have good enough tracking to kill me - have you played heavy against a scout with half decent movement? It can be difficult.
Of course, all of that logic goes out the window as soon as he starts sitting on the CP, spun up. It's kind of hard to dodge that one, especially if it's on a map with few to no additional health packs like brawl or goldtooth. :(
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It's kind of hard to dodge that one, especially if it's on a map with few to no additional health packs like brawl or goldtooth. :(
The thing with heavies though is to not approach them head-on. In the case of brawl or goldtooth, there's more than one way to get to the CP. Stating the obvious, with goldtoof you can take the roof access to the CP and drop from above or just grab the small health pack below the CP. With Brawl, I think that's okay given the size of map to health pack ratio: it ensures that you can't just outrun everybody on a giant map while constantly replenishing your health. Even on a small map like Farm Feud, if a heavy is camping you can just drop from the roof and you have 4 ways to enter the CP.
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The thing with heavies though is to not approach them head-on. In the case of brawl or goldtooth, there's more than one way to get to the CP. Stating the obvious, with goldtoof you can take the roof access to the CP and drop from above or just grab the small health pack below the CP. With Brawl, I think that's okay given the size of map to health pack ratio: it ensures that you can't just outrun everybody on a giant map while constantly replenishing your health. Even on a small map like Farm Feud, if a heavy is camping you can just drop from the roof and you have 4 ways to enter the CP.
None of this changes the fact that if he's sitting ON THE CP, you're dead in 5-6 shots, and any halfway competent heavy can hit that many out of the 15 or so he'll be able to get off in the time it takes you to get in and out. Number of ways to get to the CP isn't really the problem when one person can decide to make it unfeasible to get the health regen.
While you CAN grab the health pack on goldtooth (and it's often a better idea than grabbing the CP health), it's very easy for one pyro with speed boosts to follow you in and flame you again as you get out because you more or less have to run a linear path in that downstairs room.
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Can someone explain to me what the issue is with heavies sitting on the CP? What does heavy have to do with it?
I've sat on the CP as a pyro and have flamethrower + flare combo'd tons of props running for health, and no one seems to be complaining about that.
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Thats a good point, Voided. Basically people probably notice the heavies more because most people play pyro. Realize most heavies suck and don't accumulate a lot of kills because of how fucking slow they are. So, they need to get driveby kills in order to get the speed they need to be competitive with other classes. This is all getting out of hand anyway: you play a game in which one end kills the other, you should expect to die. This newest wave of prophunters expect all props to live and to be friendly/untouched when they blantantly call out what prop they are.
More on topic, I hear that the newest engi shotgun is extremely op, with maybe 2 hits and death and fantastic damage with long range. This is the reason this thread exists, not for every minor complaint.
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I said 3 hits and good damage at medium range
you fucking
cat
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Can someone explain to me what the issue is with heavies sitting on the CP? What does heavy have to do with it?
I've sat on the CP as a pyro and have flamethrower + flare combo'd tons of props running for health, and no one seems to be complaining about that.
1) Heavy does tons more DPS than flamethrower + flare at close range, and it does its damage as a continuous stream rather than a burst every 1.6 seconds with a stream in between.
2) It's far easier to track with the minigun than to aim a flare.
3) I can dodge a perfectly aimed flare (think aimbot). I can't dodge a perfectly tracked minigun (think aimbot).
4) Flamethrower, which is the pyro's highest source of continuous damage, has a limited range which I think is smaller than the Heavy's range before any falloff at all.
5) As a proportion of players on each class, there are far more heavies that sit on the control point than pyros who do as opposed to heavies that search for props and pyros that search for props. I think this is due to the way heavy is designed (slow, slower when using his main source of damage) as well as new players' unfamiliarity with the maps and unwillingness to give the shotgun and melee weapons a shot over the minigun. It's far easier to play heavy as an immobile pseudo-sentry gun than it is to utilize his other available weapons.
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Just a question, why does everyone think that the shotgun is so op and just complains and calls them shitguns/shotgun n00bs when they are heavily nerfed and only have 2 shots a clip? You can't even kill a prop point blank with a full clip.
However, the flare on the other hand, can kill with 1 shot, as long as the prop is even the tiniest bit on fire, unless you're extremely close to a HP pack, although the knockback on crit flares is ridiculous?
Everytime a regular dies they make some fucking stupid excuse unless it was another regular which they're like "XD OOPS SOZZY BBY <3 U i tot u wer a real prop not friendly 8)"
And sometimes when a regular dies to a shotgun, OTHER REGULARS COMPLAIN, I killed someone with a shotgun and there were 4 consecutive complaints about shotgun in prop.
tl;dr shotgun isn't that bad, flare is
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This thread in a nutshell: remove every weapon
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tl;dr shotgun isn't that bad, flare is
The basis behind the whole "shitgun" thing (I think) is that since you don't have to track your target like you do with the flare, it can be considered too easy, or noobish, to use, and a lot of new players tend to just stick with it the whole round instead of pulling out their flamethrower. It also has a good amount of knockback which can be very frustrating when trying to run away or run around. Yes, flame-flare combo with the degreaser is deadly, but from close range, the stock flamethrower can kill nearly as quickly if the prop stays still for any longer than a second. Flame-axtinguisher is instakill as well, but it doesn't seem to have raised your interest at all. Using the flare is harder as well when you factor in having to lead the target and considering it is pretty easy to dodge as long as you don't run in a straight line. I do agree that the complaining is annoying and a bit silly - I've done it myself more than a few times - and it just stems from those who wish for prophunt to be more about fun and less about playing the game, really.
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Just a question, why does everyone think that the shotgun is so op and just complains and calls them shitguns/shotgun n00bs when they are heavily nerfed and only have 2 shots a clip?
When someone shoots a flare at you, you can dodge it 100% of the time barring lag or some other unfortunate circumstance. You can't dodge a well-aimed shotgun. At all. It's on the scout dodging the flare to have good movement while it's on the shotgun pyro to have good aim.
You can't even kill a prop point blank with a full clip.
Yes you can. 60 base damage + max of 15% because of damage spread is max 69 damage per shot.
However, the flare on the other hand, can kill with 1 shot, as long as the prop is even the tiniest bit on fire, unless you're extremely close to a HP pack, although the knockback on crit flares is ridiculous?
I suppose I'm being a bit pedantic, but it cannot kill with one flame particle, it only does 90 (+6 from the flame). Also, knockback is tied directly to damage dealt, pre-nerf reserve shooter would have more knockback on a perfect air shot, and current shotgun has roughly 70% as much on a perfect shot.
Everytime a regular dies they make some fucking stupid excuse unless it was another regular which they're like "XD OOPS SOZZY BBY <3 U i tot u wer a real prop not friendly 8)"
What?
And sometimes when a regular dies to a shotgun, OTHER REGULARS COMPLAIN, I killed someone with a shotgun and there were 4 consecutive complaints about shotgun in prop.
Haven't seen this, but I'd bet it's because they already don't like the shotgun.
tl;dr shotgun isn't that bad, flare is
Nah, they're equally bad. Or good. Either way. Neither of them needs to be changed, and it's easy to dodge the M1-Q-M1 combo that most people complain about by moving before you get flamed. The majority of people that I see complain about my flare don't even try to move before they're dead - You and Box are the only people I've seen try to run from my flares before complaining about them.
The basis behind the whole "shitgun" thing (I think) is that since you don't have to track your target like you do with the flare, it can be considered too easy, or noobish, to use, and a lot of new players tend to just stick with it the whole round instead of pulling out their flamethrower.
People don't like the shotgun because it is similar to the flaregun. Since it's been nerfed, it doesn't provide nearly the burst damage that the flare does, but it provides more utility. You can weapon heckle a prop that's running to negate their health packs or run up to them and get a good shot off to finish them. It becomes frustrating when no matter how good your movement is, you still get shot either because the person with the shotgun has good aim or because your last dodge didn't register on their screen due to lag. And you got hit.
It also has a good amount of knockback which can be very frustrating when trying to run away or run around. Yes, flame-flare combo with the degreaser is deadly, but from close range, the stock flamethrower can kill nearly as quickly if the prop stays still for any longer than a second.
Stock flamethrower can kill a prop in around 0.7 seconds. Degreaser + flare can kill a prop in (if I did my math right) 0.426 seconds + travel time for the flare. The downside would be that for another 0.25 seconds or so the degreaser + flare guy can't do anything, putting deg+flare roughly on par with the flamethrower.
Flame-axtinguisher is instakill as well, but it doesn't seem to have raised your interest at all.
Likely because I have more flare kills than everyone who axtinguishes has axe kills combined. And I used to play a lot.
I do agree that the complaining is annoying and a bit silly - I've done it myself more than a few times - and it just stems from those who wish for prophunt to be more about fun and less about playing the game, really.
People complain because there's something that annoys them. The people who "want the game to be more about fun" find it annoying that any server regular disagrees with their definition of fun - just look at all the times I get called a tryhard and "go outside, Shooter", etc... Every time I play prop hunt and don't quit after a round or two, I'm having fun. Winning is fun. Not for everyone, but some people get it and some don't.
As for me, I complain about the one-shot melee weapons, minigun, and certain maps because they annoy me when I play. Not that we can do anything about some of them, but that doesn't ease my mind at all. =P
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People complain because there's something that annoys them. The people who "want the game to be more about fun" find it annoying that any server regular disagrees with their definition of fun - just look at all the times I get called a tryhard and "go outside, Shooter", etc... Every time I play prop hunt and don't quit after a round or two, I'm having fun. Winning is fun. Not for everyone, but some people get it and some don't.
Same for me obviously. After 1 and half rounds last nite, Hoodie throws a shitfit. Anyway I think the only way the "general public" could be happy is if all weapons were banned and/or completely nerfed to being worthless and every prop was allowed to live and feel like a champ.
As Voided backed me up, "This thread in a nutshell: remove every weapon." We really should cut this down to only the new and extremely unfair weapons. Crying about specifics and smaller details about preexisting weapons is pointless because these are things that have been set in stone for years now and the mod has been shaped in part by them.
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Same for me obviously. After 1 and half rounds last nite, Hoodie throws a shitfit.
Shit...fit? What?
Is that in respect to me leaving after only a round or so? If so, no, I do leave on occasion because I'm not feeling the match, or the fact that I do want to do other thing than prophunt 24/7.
I know you don't like me Box, the feeling is mutual, but please, lets keep this pissing contest between us.
Also, it isn't the shotgun I care about, its the fact that people brag about being "Dope az sh1t" or say you suck when they kill you with that or the minigun, but there is no way of fixing that, just something to live with, and occasionally get mad at.
Inb4 shitstorm incomming
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I knew you couldn't resist responding to that one. Nah kid, it was that after a round you said to go outside in the snow, spend time with family, etc. You emphasized Shooter's point after A round, when I hadn't said shit about nothin to nobody. 99% of the time people have an issue with me long before I have an issue with them.
Anyway, my post above was that I'm agreeing with Shooter and Voided on the points, and thats my point.
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(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111117164141/telletubbies/images/e/eb/The_Sun.jpg)
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Take this off topic shit to another post, please. This is a topic for weapons.
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Take this off topic shit to another post, please. This is a topic for weapons.
Seems on topic to me. Can't really have a post where people can complain about weapons without having some complain about the players behind the weapons, and those players are probably going to respond. Also I doubt anybody can be bothered to make an "OP Players/ suggested player changes" thread.
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http://forums.saxtonhell.com/index.php?topic=465.0 (http://forums.saxtonhell.com/index.php?topic=465.0)
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([url]http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111117164141/telletubbies/images/e/eb/The_Sun.jpg[/url])
Seems on topic to me.
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Anyone else think adding the Crusader Crossbow would be okay if the "healing teammates" part was removed?
Projectile Medic Weapon with same self damage as huntsman?
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add grenade launchers 2013
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Hi Voidy,
Would it be possible to see a list of all changes to weapons in layman's terms? I don't have trouble with any, I'm just interested to see what changes have been made.
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Hi Voidy,
Would it be possible to see a list of all changes to weapons in layman's terms? I don't have trouble with any, I'm just interested to see what changes have been made.
We'd could give you a list of weapon changes, but it's a number based system and would require you to match the numbers up with the stats. I'd be a pain to find every attrib for every weapon.
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Fair enough :P I only meant things like "Reduced damage" etc. Thanks anyway though.
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Weapons generally have two percentage metrics: Damage to self while using it, and damage to props.
I think the only significant changes we made was to decrease the damage to props on the reserve shooter, and to make the Huo-Long Heater do self damage when spun up.
The rest has either been blacklisting/allowing new flavors of existing weapons, like stranges and festives.
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Oh ok thanks :)
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What would you guys think of adding Bushwacka jumping for the Sniper? Would give the few players who use the Sniper on occasion some extra mobility.
For those who don't know, Bushwacka jumping is used in our hale servers. It allows Snipers to climb walls when a player jumps and hits a wall with the Bushwacka, at the price of some health damage.
And if you guys like the idea, how about adding it to all of Sniper's melee weapons? Or should it be set to only one melee, which doesn't necessarily have to be the Bushwacka? Bushwacka gets crits when used with Jarate, so perhaps it could be added to say the Tribalman's Shiv or even stock to encourage use of them.
As well adding it in, what about the health penalty? When used, should it do more damage when jumping, or take the same amount of health away when using the weapon?
TL;DR version: Bushwacka jumping: Yes or no?
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Should be on Bushwacka, but only when you don't have jarate equipped.
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Or any melee minus buchwacka, since it crits on jarate.
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Is it possible to apply the sapper's slow down effect on players or does it only work against robots?
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Is it possible to apply the sapper's slow down effect on players or does it only work against robots?
As far as I'm aware, you can't attach a sapper to players and it's not possible to allow sappers to be attached to players..
Also, I like the idea of allowing non-jumping classes to jump when meleeing a wall. I'd suggest allowing it on Sniper besides bushwacka, Engineer all weapons, Medic all weapons, and Heavy for Holiday Punch only.
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Problem is that there are often lips or gaps which would stop the progression using melee.
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Problem is that there are often lips or gaps which would stop the progression using melee.
Welcome to jump maps.
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Fair enough :/ I haven't ventured that far afield yet. I assume then that you're saying snipes etc can ride up a wall and have a sort of 'sticky' period where they have time to jump in any direction to reach another wall?
That would be a good addition and would mean that more classes are a viable option other than purely strategic reasons eg Engi Dispencer etc
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Fair enough :/ I haven't ventured that far afield yet. I assume then that you're saying snipes etc can ride up a wall and have a sort of 'sticky' period where they have time to jump in any direction to reach another wall?
That would be a good addition and would mean that more classes are a viable option other than purely strategic reasons eg Engi Dispencer etc
The way the sniper jump works on the jump maps is it pushes you up and slightly away from the wall. You can then air strafe back to the wall and melee it again to jump up more. You can also air strafe around ledges and corners if you need to.
Also, I disagree that having a dispenser is strategic. :(
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Surely the location of the dispencer is strategic? (I play alot of rts games so I think about this kind of thing) For instance you dont want to put it next to other health packs or ammo packs, no do you want to put it right next to the CP, you want to try to combine this with obstructing a props movement while being in an easily accessible place for hunters (RTS nerd out over) :P
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Also, I disagree that having a dispenser is strategic. :(
Of course it is.
PH in general is not played as a team mode, most people just mindlessly go after kills and it makes it a really shallow mode. That said if you play engie as a support class rather than a hunter not only is it more fun, but it's a lot more interesting. It is the biggest problem with PH imo, people who just tryhard for kills.
When I play engie I usually pick a spot where props most often run to when being chased, set up my dispenser in the best spot to block or slow them down, and not really go for kills....just sort of funnel the props to my teammates and assist when I can. If there isn't much traffic I just start clearing the bottom floor usually with my melee.
Turning the engie into a hunting class by giving him some sort of jump is a bad idea imo. I would rather see a Short Circuit that slows props when hit, we have enough hunting classes, we need at least 1 good support class. And because engie wouldnt get many kills doing this it wouldn't upset the rankings or anything by changing one of the classes and there isn't a need to balance the Short Circuit because the metal cost is insane already.
Bushwacka jumping and slow effect on the Short Circuit.
Pwwweeeaaaassssseeeeee...? We need at least 1 blu support class.
(http://i.imgur.com/ur0DTF2.gif)
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Surely the location of the dispencer is strategic? (I play alot of rts games so I think about this kind of thing) For instance you dont want to put it next to other health packs or ammo packs, no do you want to put it right next to the CP, you want to try to combine this with obstructing a props movement while being in an easily accessible place for hunters (RTS nerd out over) :P
I suppose that placing the dispenser in order to provide optimal health and ammo is a strategic part of engie play, however it's not necessary. If you want to figure out the best places to put your dispenser, be my guest. I'm sure the rest of the BLU team will thank you. I simply find it unnecessary - it's faster in 100% of cases to kill a prop and get health or find a health pack. Also, most maps have enough metal that finding ammo isn't much of a problem but on the other one - I'm looking at you, CCHotel - a dispenser can be kind of nice.
That being said, I'm still of the opinion that using a building to either completely block access or trap a prop in an area is griefing. If you want to block one door of a two door house, good job. If you want to use your dispenser + yourself to completely block off access to an area or trap a prop inside you're no better in my mind than someone who wants to hide under the map or ghost people. Not that I necessarily think either of those is wrong but they're against the rules or something.
PH in general is not played as a team mode, most people just mindlessly go after kills and it makes it a really shallow mode. That said if you play engie as a support class rather than a hunter not only is it more fun, but it's a lot more interesting. It is the biggest problem with PH imo, people who just tryhard for kills.
Why should it be a team mode? Right now, it works like any other pub. Sure, there's a team but everyone either lone wolfs or works in small groups with friends. If I can get more points than the rest of my team put together on a pretty consistent basis why should I rely on them to be a team with me? As the skill level of ph in general goes up - instead of having 90%+ not really know what they're doing, 9% pretty decent - maybe played for a week or so, and 1% roll over everyone else - there will be more incentive to work as a team.
Besides, I get rewarded individually in the form of rank points, scoreboard points, and speed boosts. Why do I want to share those with other people?
When I play engie I usually pick a spot where props most often run to when being chased, set up my dispenser in the best spot to block or slow them down, and not really go for kills....just sort of funnel the props to my teammates and assist when I can. If there isn't much traffic I just start clearing the bottom floor usually with my melee.
Remember, the people that you're funnelling to will, in the majority of cases, not be able to hit a prop that knows what the space bar is.
Turning the engie into a hunting class by giving him some sort of jump is a bad idea imo. I would rather see a Short Circuit that slows props when hit, we have enough hunting classes, we need at least 1 good support class. And because engie wouldnt get many kills doing this it wouldn't upset the rankings or anything by changing one of the classes and there isn't a need to balance the Short Circuit because the metal cost is insane already.
Bushwacka jumping and slow effect on the Short Circuit.
No. NO. Nononononono.
Think. Besides hiding, what is the ONLY thing that RED has to protect themselves from BLU?
Their movement.
Why do you think people hate miniguns besides the high damage output? Why do you think airblast is disabled? They both hinder or completely deny the scout's movement. Imagine prop hunt if once a scout was found, they couldn't move. Who would play? 3 minutes of respawn after a shot bit hiding? Boring.
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Dude, how many keyboards did you just go through typing all that? lol
To sum up your post, you like points and don't care about it being team oriented. Fair enough but that is extremely boring to all of us who don't care about rank, those of us who just play for fun. Also the Short Circuit has a small range and heavy ammo cost, to try and say it would be OP is silly. Like 43 clowns climbing out of a VW Bug silly. Stop being silly Shooter...STOP IT!
Also it would be entirely optional class, you realize that right? Keep playing pyro all you want, but team players want to have something to do too. I honestly don't even like hunting, especially as a pyro. And if another hunter can't finish the job when you slow a prop down good for the prop, another reason why it wouldn't be OP. Also the slow down wouldn't need to be set to a billion, you could set it low enough though for pyros without a kill to catch up to it or soldiers who are slow as balls anyway. Engie with a Short Circuit = one less pyro chasing the prop btw.
If you honestly think adding a slowdown to the Short Circuit would make it boring...here's some bad news. There are a big group of people who play for rank and basically just to win, that's fine. For me, boring is being killed in literally 1 second by a degreaser+axe or flare. Boring is also only being able to hunt and not even given another option. Boring is anything resembling tryhardness. I grew out of that with COD4 lol. Not that I mind any of this, I'm only pointing out that your way of playing bores me as much as I'm sure mine bores you. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't have the option to play the way I want. And neither should you. Assuming obviously it doesn't unbalance everything, which I don't think it would.
And most importantly, the biggest defense tool in PH isn't running away...it's hiding well. Which is the entire point.
/insanely long post
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Completely agreed 9mm - Hunters should be able to play as they should.
I don't think the idea of short circuit slowing down props is a good idea simply because the basis of putting it in would be to give the engie more of a chance - this is all well and good until you get to the fact that there is rarely just an engie on the server against props. Most people, tryhards or not will try and steal kills, its what people do. So if ALL engies dont mind having their kills stolen and ALL props dont mind being stuck in the mind then it's a good idea but I think as it stands the engie would be irritating while pyros exploit the reduced movement.
I guess it could be experimented with but I think slowing movement is dodgy, miniguns are cope-with-able in that while they push you away with knock back you can still escape them. Slowing movement would make this obsolete entirely. Short Circuit with knock back could be something to look into though. I have never used the SC so I dont know what it does / what its stats are so forgive for not knowing why it isnt in the game mode already.
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Just to be clear though, and despite my epic poem of a post, I don't really care either way about the short circuit specifically. I just wish there was a way to play prophunt that wasn't entirely chasing and killing the props. It just gets a bit boring. The great thing about VSH is that there are tons of options as to how to play.
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Dude, how many keyboards did you just go through typing all that? lol
I like how the beginning of every one of your posts is an insult. Really gets people to like you. Not to mention your post is longer than my last one. :)
To sum up your post, you like points and don't care about it being team oriented. Fair enough but that is extremely boring to all of us who don't care about rank, those of us who just play for fun. Also the Short Circuit has a small range and heavy ammo cost, to try and say it would be OP is silly. Like 43 clowns climbing out of a VW Bug silly. Stop being silly Shooter...STOP IT!
I'm not sure where you got that from my post. I'm pretty sure I never I said I like it that way - that's just how it is right now. Not to mention this notion that I never have fun when I'm playing.
Also it would be entirely optional class, you realize that right? Keep playing pyro all you want, but team players want to have something to do too. I honestly don't even like hunting, especially as a pyro. And if another hunter can't finish the job when you slow a prop down good for the prop, another reason why it wouldn't be OP. Also the slow down wouldn't need to be set to a billion, you could set it low enough though for pyros without a kill to catch up to it or soldiers who are slow as balls anyway. Engie with a Short Circuit = one less pyro chasing the prop btw.
If a prop gets slowed down they're as good as dead. Anything less than a 2 speed boost pyro is as good as useless unless there's no way a pyro can get two speed boosts. It might not be unbalanced but for the ONE prop that you manage to get throughtout the whole round, they have little to no chance.
OH WAIT, you could just sit on the control point and deny it better than anything else.
If you honestly think adding a slowdown to the Short Circuit would make it boring...here's some bad news. There are a big group of people who play for rank and basically just to win, that's fine. For me, boring is being killed in literally 1 second by a degreaser+axe or flare. Boring is also only being able to hunt and not even given another option. Boring is anything resembling tryhardness. I grew out of that with COD4 lol. Not that I mind any of this, I'm only pointing out that your way of playing bores me as much as I'm sure mine bores you. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't have the option to play the way I want. And neither should you. Assuming obviously it doesn't unbalance everything, which I don't think it would.
1) You don't have to try hard to be good, nor does trying hard rule out having fun.
2) You can dodge flares. Short circuit is hitscan.
3) I'm right there with you on the axe.
4) You DO have the option to play the way you want - I'm not sure where I'm denying you that. However, with the current config, it's not possible to slow people down using the short circuit and it's not possible for you to play that way.
5) Your way of playing doesn't bore me in the slightest. If I want to win something I'll play PH or a lobby, and you not trying at all doesn't hinder me from doing that at all.
And most importantly, the biggest defense tool in PH isn't running away...it's hiding well. Which is the entire point.
There's a reason that you don't get permanently frozen when you prop lock. You have two ways to prevent dying - hiding is the first and running the second. Hiding might prevent you from dying longer but if you don't run when you're found you're sure to die.
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Completely agreed 9mm - Hunters should be able to play as they should.
I don't think the idea of short circuit slowing down props is a good idea simply because the basis of putting it in would be to give the engie more of a chance - this is all well and good until you get to the fact that there is rarely just an engie on the server against props. Most people, tryhards or not will try and steal kills, its what people do. So if ALL engies dont mind having their kills stolen and ALL props dont mind being stuck in the mind then it's a good idea but I think as it stands the engie would be irritating while pyros exploit the reduced movement.
I guess it could be experimented with but I think slowing movement is dodgy, miniguns are cope-with-able in that while they push you away with knock back you can still escape them. Slowing movement would make this obsolete entirely. Short Circuit with knock back could be something to look into though. I have never used the SC so I dont know what it does / what its stats are so forgive for not knowing why it isnt in the game mode already.
I agree, and I also fail to see how I'm preventing you from playing the way you want. You seem to play more or less the same way I do but less efficiently. If the way I play prevents you from playing the way you want to play, somehow, sorry but go find another server.
Just to be clear though, and despite my epic poem of a post, I don't really care either way about the short circuit specifically. I just wish there was a way to play prophunt that wasn't entirely chasing and killing the props. It just gets a bit boring. The great thing about VSH is that there are tons of options as to how to play.
There are ways to play that don't involve chasing or killing the props. You can place a dispenser for your team as engie or stand around pointing them out with calls of "SPY!" (Although you'd be risking a ban. I'm not sure anyone's been banned for being pseudo friendly alone yet, but it is technically against the rules.) The problem is with the way the game mode is designed. Hale doesn't have a time limit after which the non-hales lose. Medic can heal people and spy isn't banned. There isn't a huge ban list. Currently chasing and killing the props is the best way because it ends the round the fastest. Either way, I can't think of a whole lot of possible support type roles although I think it would be really neat if the medic could heal given the medigun damaged him more than his passive health regeneration heals him.
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I like how the beginning of every one of your posts is an insult. Really gets people to like you. Not to mention your post is longer than my last one. :)
I'm not sure where you got that from my post. I'm pretty sure I never I said I like it that way - that's just how it is right now. Not to mention this notion that I never have fun when I'm playing.
If a prop gets slowed down they're as good as dead. Anything less than a 2 speed boost pyro is as good as useless unless there's no way a pyro can get two speed boosts. It might not be unbalanced but for the ONE prop that you manage to get throughtout the whole round, they have little to no chance.
OH WAIT, you could just sit on the control point and deny it better than anything else.
1) You don't have to try hard to be good, nor does trying hard rule out having fun.
2) You can dodge flares. Short circuit is hitscan.
3) I'm right there with you on the axe.
4) You DO have the option to play the way you want - I'm not sure where I'm denying you that. However, with the current config, it's not possible to slow people down using the short circuit and it's not possible for you to play that way.
5) Your way of playing doesn't bore me in the slightest. If I want to win something I'll play PH or a lobby, and you not trying at all doesn't hinder me from doing that at all.
There's a reason that you don't get permanently frozen when you prop lock. You have two ways to prevent dying - hiding is the first and running the second. Hiding might prevent you from dying longer but if you don't run when you're found you're sure to die.
Everything looks like an insult to someone with no sense of humor. Which is my smartass way of saying...I wasn't trying to insult anyone.
But if you aren't happy about it why are you arguing about it at all? Why not just suggest something else? My entire point was that the server only has 1 option on blu, hunt and kill, anything else is considered banworthy by the admins.
And if a "prop gets slowed down he's dead"....that's kind of the point. Having an engie item that slows down (doesn't have to be short circuit ovbiously) it is still less powerful than any pyro loadout which can kill almost instantly. I honestly don't even know what your point is here, if it is that the short circuit isn't a good idea to give slowdown, fine. If it is that any sort of slowdown will break the game, that's clearly wrong, anything can be balanced. If it is that there should only be 1 objective for blu team, to kill...then fine but that is boring.
Please though, if you respond say something less argumentative. It's a suggestion thread, not a "argue anytime someone suggests something that would effect the way I play" thread. Actually scratch that, to be honest I never cared about this anyway, I just wanted to suggest something to try out because I was getting bored with PH. Do whatever you want, I couldn't give 2 shits. I would rather have an inch long zit on the middle of my ballsack than continue talking with you about this. And for the record, THAT is what an insult looks like. lol
(http://i.imgur.com/k9ckm.gif)
And in case you were wondering, yes, this is just me being a smartass again lol, no need to take it personally.
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9mm, while I agree with plenty of things you're saying, I think you're overusing the "tryhard" term a bit. Killing every prop you find isn't necessarily being tryhard - it's playing the game the way it's meant to be played, something it seems people tend to forget. Sure I spend most of my rounds these days playing as soldier or heavy or some other class where I'm not really trying much, but there's nothing wrong with a person like Shooter or box or anyone else who just plays to kill props. The ranking system may affect it, and I think taking it away would change the game some, but at the end of the day you can still press Tab and look at the scoreboard, and there aren't many people who wouldn't get satisfaction from being at the top.
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short circuit slowing is bad idea 2/10 do not want
and i use engi
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9mm, while I agree with plenty of things you're saying, I think you're overusing the "tryhard" term a bit. Killing every prop you find isn't necessarily being tryhard - it's playing the game the way it's meant to be played, something it seems people tend to forget. Sure I spend most of my rounds these days playing as soldier or heavy or some other class where I'm not really trying much, but there's nothing wrong with a person like Shooter or box or anyone else who just plays to kill props. The ranking system may affect it, and I think taking it away would change the game some, but at the end of the day you can still press Tab and look at the scoreboard, and there aren't many people who wouldn't get satisfaction from being at the top.
For the record I don't consider tryhard an insult, there's plenty of things I am a tryhard at. *cough* COD4 *cough*
(http://i.imgur.com/MzvZypn.gif)
Also Eskimo, way to shit on something without actually contributing lol, I fucking hate the internet sometimes...
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For the record I don't consider tryhard an insult, there's plenty of things I am a tryhard at.
I know, just putting in my two cents.
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Alrighty guys, getting a bit off topic once again. This topic is for weapon changes. Let's try not to change it again, shall we?
Which, considering how often the PH forum gets off topic, I'm sure it will happen again. xP
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nerf the meagical rocket jumper it does my damage then rocket :3
just kidding
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Alrighty guys, getting a bit off topic once again. This topic is for weapon changes. Let's try not to change it again, shall we?
Which, considering how often the PH forum gets off topic, I'm sure it will happen again. xP
What's the point of a suggestion thread without some debate? Sorry if it gets heated. :D
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Even debates should be kept as detached as possible ;)
Also, can I just ask why the Demo grenade launcher was removed? was it just OP or something like that?
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Also, can I just ask why the Demo grenade launcher was removed? was it just OP or something like that?
The splash damage I would assume and the fact that they just roll around. Accidentally find props all day with it.
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Shotguns are op.
enough said
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Shotguns are way2 op for prophunt.
Doesn't require anyskill to aim
people just m1
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Shotguns are way2 op for prophunt.
Doesn't require anyskill to aim
people just m1
Flare gun's far better but shotgun's more annoying when you're red.
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Shotguns are op.
enough said
Shotgun has 2 shots that can do 72 damage max each, assuming you get the +10% damage boost, hit every pellet, and are close enough for damage ramp up to take effect.
Flare has one shot that does 30 + 60 over time or 90 + 60 over time AND has passive reload.
Flare is better by far if you can aim it. Shotgun's only annoying because of the way dodging it works, there's really not that many people who are good with the shotgun and use it in prop hunt...
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Dumb thread. Topic has been worn out big time.
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It takes skill to aim with a flare...
Shotgun shots just spread everywhere which most people are doing is m1ing..
You can dodge shotgun's aswell as flares
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It takes skill to aim with a flare...
Shotgun shots just spread everywhere which most people are doing is m1ing..
You can dodge shotgun's aswell as flares
Tell me, why do the majority of regulars NOT use shotgun? It's far more effective to just use your primary than to use the shotgun.
Sure, they might spread everywhere but the spread is completely random besides one bullet which goes to where the center of your crosshair is aimed. They might be able to hit you with one pellet per shot but that one pellet is doing minimal damage. Usually under 5 damage at mid-long range.
You can only dodge shotguns in the sense that they miss their shots. The bullets from a shotgun have NO travel time; if they're aiming at you when they press M1 you WILL get hit. Conversely, flares have a travel time and outside of a couple feet you can dodge 100% of flares with a combination of predicting when they will shoot and moving out of the way of the flare as it's coming towards you.
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Earlier i was playing and i know i may not be the best at prop but
i got killed loads of times. just by one guy running around
using a shotgun aiming wildly and shooting wildly
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Earlier i was playing and i know i may not be the best at prop but
i got killed loads of times. just by one guy running around
using a shotgun aiming wildly and shooting wildly
Go read about Hitscan (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Hitscan (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Hitscan)) and lag compensation (http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Lag_compensation (http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Lag_compensation)). He might have been "shooting wildly" to you but to him, he was aiming at you, and that's why you got hit. Keep in mind both of these (to the best of my knowledge) do NOT apply to flare guns because they are treated as projectile weapons.
P.S. Someone help me, how do I insert a link into text? :(
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shotguns are not op they lose damage when far away if it was hit while flares dont lose damage from far hits so shotguns are not op you are just being a baby that you get killed by them everyone get kills by them
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or you don't play ph and don't see how op they are?..
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i been on ph and they arent
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Shotguns aren't OP, I've played PH. If someone's "spamming" their shotgun at you from far away, it does 3-5 damage, usually. That then causes the prop to run, and the player to run to the prop. If anything, it's strategic :P. I'm expecting arguments against what I said, but it's my opinion.
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Hate shotguns, not because they are OP. A degreaser + axe or flare = the most OP setup in the game but no one minds it, including me. The problem with the shotgun is it takes the fun out of the game. Same with the minigun. When I get killed by a flare while on fire I know it took some amount of luck or skill to hit me and it's still fun...a shotgun is 24-7 accuracy. Unless you suck obviously, but most people can aim a shotgun. And it just stops you from running around the whole time, which is a fun thing to do when you get bored or the map sucks.
That said, the new engie shotgun is amazing and if anyone tries to remove it I swear I will travel to an foreign asian country, learn martial arts, come back 10 years later, and ninja kick them in the face.
(http://i.imgur.com/na9aHsb.png)
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they are op up close thats wat they are made for to get up close
unlike this one--> (http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/221/460/102183%20-%20artist%253Astupjam%20Christmas%20parody%20pinkie_pie%20pinkie_pyro%20pyro%20sitting%20smissmas%20Team_Fortress_2%20tf2.png)
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Shotguns are not OP in any way, only maybe when engie is using one running after you but thats for engie and you can outrun him easily. Shotguns even up close take many hits whereas Flame/Flare or Flame/Axe aren't OP?
Pyro shotguns are ok anyway unless the pyro in question has fast movement cause they can keep up with you, even then, that's because the pyro has kills and they deserve those if they got them (other than stealing, but I digress).
In short, yeah they are annoying, and yes when you are around a corner and lag compensation gives the pyro the kill it's rage inducing, but they are NOT op. just think of those who join the server and get killed before they are given a chance to live? (Shooter I'm looking at you :P )...and anyone using the flare/axe combo.
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*refers to other Shotgun exclusive suggestion thread ¬_¬ *
"Shotguns are not OP in any way, only maybe when engie is using one running after you but thats for engie and you can outrun him easily. Shotguns even up close take many hits whereas Flame/Flare or Flame/Axe aren't OP?
Pyro shotguns are ok anyway unless the pyro in question has fast movement cause they can keep up with you, even then, that's because the pyro has kills and they deserve those if they got them (other than stealing, but I digress).
In short, yeah they are annoying, and yes when you are around a corner and lag compensation gives the pyro the kill it's rage inducing, but they are NOT op. just think of those who join the server and get killed before they are given a chance to live? (Shooter I'm looking at you :P )...and anyone using the flare/axe combo."
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They are annoying, yes, but not really OP. If you are running in a bigger map, it's much easier to dodge them. In a smaller map like Headquarters or Maze? Very, very annoying. It doesn't take much skill to use it, and unless you're really that bad that you can't aim at all with it, then you're guaranteed to get a hit or two in. But, as painpill said, I'd much rather be killed with a flare gun as it actually requires some skill to aim.
As for getting my kill stolen by someone using a shotgun, that just angers me. I flare a prop, they're about to die, then some shotty comes along and kills them from far away. :(
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I have a feeling this vote is not to see how the community feels about the balance of shotguns. I think it may be an attempt by Joshy to express his displeasure with the shotgun in this mode. Maybe.
And then Voidy merged the thread and my sarcastic quip made much less sense.
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I've merged the shotgun thread into this thread, expect odd looking posts.
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The reason nobody has really complained this until late (other than this new wave of faggot babies) is because prior to this last year, weapon switching caused you to lose any speed buildup you made by killing props. So, much like Shooter said, most people use THEIR PRIMARY weapon: the flamethrower. I use shotgun as a desperate attempt to knock off the last 5-20 hp or so if the prop is running away out of the flamethrower's reach.
Now that everybody is spoiled and keeps their health upon weapon switch, people such as Josh, Shooter etc can get away with a tiny 2 flamethrower-ammo tap of M1, then rely on that secondary flare to instagib the prop.
Given that comparison between those 2 scenarios, you can really see that the shotgun isn't OP.
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ITT: Debate interspersed with "Hey guys I played prop hunt once, I know what I'm talking about. No, really!" Who knew shotgun was such a big issue.
The reason nobody has really complained this until late (other than this new wave of faggot babies) is because prior to this last year, weapon switching caused you to lose any speed buildup you made by killing props. So, much like Shooter said, most people use THEIR PRIMARY weapon: the flamethrower. I use shotgun as a desperate attempt to knock off the last 5-20 hp or so if the prop is running away out of the flamethrower's reach.
Now that everybody is spoiled and keeps their health upon weapon switch, people such as Josh, Shooter etc can get away with a tiny 2 flamethrower-ammo tap of M1, then rely on that secondary flare to instagib the prop.
Given that comparison between those 2 scenarios, you can really see that the shotgun isn't OP.
Dodging my flare's no different from dodging your flames except that I can only shoot a flare every 1.6 seconds.
Also, I didn't know that weapon switch caused you to lose speed. I think that's a bad idea because it promotes only flamethrower use. D:
Shotguns are not OP in any way, only maybe when engie is using one running after you but thats for engie and you can outrun him easily. Shotguns even up close take many hits whereas Flame/Flare or Flame/Axe aren't OP?
Pyro shotguns are ok anyway unless the pyro in question has fast movement cause they can keep up with you, even then, that's because the pyro has kills and they deserve those if they got them (other than stealing, but I digress).
In short, yeah they are annoying, and yes when you are around a corner and lag compensation gives the pyro the kill it's rage inducing, but they are NOT op. just think of those who join the server and get killed before they are given a chance to live? (Shooter I'm looking at you :P )...and anyone using the flare/axe combo.
1) Engie, soldier, and heavy all have 6-shot shotguns. I think the only one that's a problem is the soldier because of the increased mobility; engie and heavy are, well, slow.
2) Anyone can run away from me and my flares, I seem to have no problem doing it to you. Getting killed before you have a chance isn't my fault when you (generalizing here) don't run.
3) Axe sucks. All the power of the flare and less aim required than the shotgun. Also can't really be dodged except by being out of range.
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Of course you can move out of the way of flares / axe very easily, especially for regulars or those who generally know what they're doing. What about for those who are new to the mod or the game itself? How do they stand a chance? Many people don't seem to realise they can even run when they're seen and just sit there waiting for their health to run down.
My point is simply to contrast the complaints for regulars about annoyances of a shotgun compared to people wanting to have fun but are relentlessly slaughtered. As I have said many times before, I think of those new to the mod rather than my own rank/points.....unlike some.
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People just run around chasing props m1ing their ass's
And tbh it's pretty hard to lose someone on a small map...
In my opinion Shotguns require no skill..
Just spam it towards a prop...
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Of course you can move out of the way of flares / axe very easily, especially for regulars or those who generally know what they're doing. What about for those who are new to the mod or the game itself? How do they stand a chance? Many people don't seem to realise they can even run when they're seen and just sit there waiting for their health to run down.
My point is simply to contrast the complaints for regulars about annoyances of a shotgun compared to people wanting to have fun but are relentlessly slaughtered. As I have said many times before, I think of those new to the mod rather than my own rank/points.....unlike some.
I think if you want to play the game, you should learn how to play first, yes? We were all new once and it really isn't THAT hard to figure out "Hey, that pyro with a burning head killed me every time. Maybe I should GTFO when he's coming towards me. Other people are running, right?" If someone doesn't run, they shouldn't be complaining about weapon balance anyways.
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In my opinion Shotguns require no skill..
Just spam it towards a prop...
Spamming it toward a prop usually damaged very little, often zero damage. I'll let people unload shotguns onto me if I'm far enough because it won't damage a thing, or perhaps 1hp at most. As Shooter and I have said, you really have to get a direct hit/all or most shells must hit in order to get any worthwhile damage.
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What Box said. I often don't even move when someone shotguns me unless they try to jetpack over to where I am.
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When I'm running, shotguns basically don't affect me at all. However, I could get flared when I'm not paying attention and die instantly.
I don't care either way, both aren't that OP, other than on people who can't dodge.
@joshy you can't really spam a shotgun when it has 2 bullets :-*
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shotgun is not op up close like i said but the most op weapon of all times is luve, and maybe the the op one will be piss
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shotgun is not op up close like i said but the most op weapon of all times is luve, and maybe the the op one will be jarate
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shotgun is not op up close like i said but the most op weapon of all times is luve, and maybe the the op one will be piss
What? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English) In all seriousness, why would Jarate be OP, and what is this Luve weapon?
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she finds alot of people mor ehten others
and she scares me :3
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she finds alot of people mor ehten others
and she scares me :3
Scary = OP now? :o
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If you didn't know eski you can reload.
and if you reload it puts more bullets in your gun.
And the reload speed is pretty fast.
Engi heavy and solly have 6 bullets i think.
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Flamethrower is op cause you don't have to reload it.
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To sum up this thread so far;
"Every single weapon is OP!"
Gimme a break.
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I recommend it being heavy w/ melee only, should be quite balanced
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just make the reload speed on the shotguns like 2 times slower or something
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just make the reload speed on the shotguns like 2 times slower or something
It's not OP
edit: why didn't you just keep the damn shotgun thread to itself so we don't have this shit in this thread
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Because we don't need a separate topic for discussion of a single weapon?
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Because we don't need a separate topic for discussion of a single weapon?
shotgun and flare are 2 weapons :---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------)
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In my personal opinion, I don't find anything about the shotgun OP. I personally use the detonator because I feel like the shotgun is pretty useless at range, and I generally don't have difficulty predicting/leading props with a detonator explosion.
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In my personal opinion, I don't find anything about the shotgun OP. I personally use the detonator because I feel like the shotgun is pretty useless at range, and I generally don't have difficulty predicting/leading props with a detonator explosion.
Why detonator over flare?
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Why detonator over flare?
Better chance of igniting the prop with alt fire.
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flare is ok but still i would use denater
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flare is ok but still i would use denater
Is that what you use? How does it work out? I feel like it's viable but only like 1 person I know of uses it well.
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Might I suggest that we at least make the shotgun nerf universal rather than just exclusive to the Pyro?
Also, a similar nerf to the minigun might dissipate some of the complaints with it. Smaller clip(maybe like 50) but ammo refills when not spinning it up. It should also come with a BIG damage nerf, just because you should not be able to kill a Scout before he can properly react like the current minigun can.
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How about undoing any nerfing that SH has done to the shotgun, and keep it along the lines of what GM and VaultF4 use? If you really wanna see it as "OP," jump into that shithole SourceOP Prophunt. Fucking enough crying over the shotgun already.
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We haven't touched the shotgun at all.
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Meant Reserve Shooter, my bad.
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We haven't touched the shotgun at all.
keep it that way 5evr <3 :-*
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I noticed that the eviction notice does normal self-damage per swing (for heavy melee it's 10 points). The eviction notice is a melee that's meant to use more swings in rapid succession to get the job done (-60% damage, +50% firing speed), so it doesn't make much sense for it to have the same self damage.
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Miniguns 2stronk, please nerf or maybe even remove.
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This was brought up before but lost somewhere in the threads.
Any chance the "Heals Allies" attribute could be removed from the Crusader's Crossbow to allow it into gameplay?
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What are the benefits?
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Please nerf botkiller rocket launcher, minigun and whatever ones arnt nerfed cause toast and shake a like 2 shoting people
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Please nerf botkiller rocket launcher, minigun and whatever ones arnt nerfed cause toast and shake a like 2 shoting people
Unless there's new ones they already are. IIRC all rocket launchers can 2 shot people and miniguns can 3-4 shot at close range.
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rocket launchers can only 2 shot props that are big enough for the full splash damage to hit.
it's racket jamps are really bad too, so it's balanced
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rocket launchers can only 2 shot props that are big enough for the full splash damage to hit.
it's racket jamps are really bad too, so it's balanced
You can direct hit small props too.
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that can sometimes do <30 damage
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that can sometimes do <30 damage
Rocket damage is based on range. If you're close it'll do more. If you're far away I think the minimum for a direct hit is ~30.
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Goats and I have both recently tried using rocket launcher, and on some props it definitely does MUCH less damage than on things like wood pile or concrete blocks
sometimes it can do crazy damage like 80, though
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I say just get rid of all rocket launchers period. Or at least severely nerf their damage. Barely even have to aim to take out half a prop's health.
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well its doin like 30 - 150 damage :/
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I'm slightly lost, are there rocket launchers which are already nerfed which are not nerfed enough or are these difference ones? Surely botkillers should be the same as the normal version thereof?
Quick question; y u no dodge? :P
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SPLASH DAMAGE :'( :'( :'(
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This was brought up before but lost somewhere in the threads.
Any chance the "Heals Allies" attribute could be removed from the Crusader's Crossbow to allow it into gameplay?
I have also heard a couple people voice this opinion and wouldn't mind having it myself.
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I'm slightly lost, are there rocket launchers which are already nerfed which are not nerfed enough or are these difference ones? Surely botkillers should be the same as the normal version thereof?
Quick question; y u no dodge? :P
Short aswer: Yes. They are. And people are too bad to dodge.
Long answer: Apparently splash damage can stack multiple times on big props to multiply the damage, but I was under the impression that this didn't happen, especially since different sized player models don't take different amounts of damage when direct shot by a rocket. Also, people don't dodge because they're bad.
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I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in hating the minigun of the heavy on prophunt hell. And there has always been one thing that has confused me: why is the minigun for the heavy not banned? I understand that in some instances, it takes some skill to use it and not die. But, ultimately, it becomes a very cheap way to get kills, especially when all the minigun user does is camp the cp. It gets even worse when someone else on the team becomes an engineer: because then it enables the heavy to camp by the dispenser. This in itself is completely broken and completely cheap. Please, i've had enough of the heavy being able to use the minigun.
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This has been discussed within this thread (http://forums.saxtonhell.com/index.php?topic=105.0) many times. Reasons as to why it likely won't be removed are in there, big one being that it'd give our server an advantage over GM.
EDIT: Just some quotes from that thread, to give a general idea on the subject. Feel free to look over the entire thread, though.
Spawn camping is pretty lame in general, dunno if I'd say that's OP though because the same gun can be used away from the CP. Adjust your strategy as to when you run for the CP and how: don't just barrel through the middle of the CP to and from.
Can someone explain to me what the issue is with heavies sitting on the CP? What does heavy have to do with it?
I've sat on the CP as a pyro and have flamethrower + flare combo'd tons of props running for health, and no one seems to be complaining about that.
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This has been discussed within this thread ([url]http://forums.saxtonhell.com/index.php?topic=105.0[/url]) many times. Reasons as to why it likely won't be removed are in there.
Thanks for the link! ^_^ I'm currently reading it through.
btw: this post mostly came about because everyone of the regulars (including me) were getting really mad at someone for using the heavy and his minigun... and he kept doing it to troll us, since we were all mad. I was just finally tired of it. D:
edit: should i possibly make some suggestions on that thread?
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Yes, any weapon change suggestions can go in that thread. I'm just going to go ahead and merge this thread with it. :)
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Yes, any weapon change suggestions can go in that thread. I'm just going to go ahead and merge this thread with it. :)
thanks luve! :D
now then, since there is obviously some discussion, ill just make a couple of points here:
1.)I read somewhere about the whole cp camping deal. I don't think i noticed anybody mention anything about the range. The difference between pyro cp campers and heavy cp campers is the fact that the heavy's minigun can reach greater distances than the pyro's flamethrower. When someone is found, it is essentially a death sentence to get anywhere near the minigun's range. It is hard to even to get to the health packs scattered around when there is a heavy on you. Whereas the pyro's flamethrower is easier to avoid. Yes, multiple flamethrows at once will kill you, or even running into one will, but you can still avoid it. Heavy, that's almost impossible. It gets even worse when someone makes a dispenser next to cp. The dispenser allows the heavy to continuously spam the minigun, without much penalty. Which, in the context of what i said earlier, is extremely cheap. Also: the heavy might take a good amount of damage for using their minigun, but if they are cp camping: there is a good chance the prop that is coming to the cp is already low on health, and thus only takes a couple of shots to kill. Any somewhat decent heavy should be able to make that kill easily, without much worry of dying from the minigun.
2.)Granted, if the heavy is actually trying to find props, they have to be somewhat good at prophunt to not let themselves die. However, once someone knows spots: the heavy tends to become completely broken. The instant they are on you, it takes just a couple of shots, and you're dead. Absolutely nothing can be done about it. If you manage to run from the spot you were in, the minigun still has the range to kill you from afar.
Edited: and these quick kills have absolutely nothing towards actual weapon skill.
3.) This suggestion is more of a group pleaser than anything. Someone came onto the server today, and most all of us regulars were ranting and raving about how much we hate people who use the minigun. The next thing that pissed us off? The guy who was doing it kept going because he knew it was pissing us off, and he enjoyed making us mad (he actually said this himself). If the minigun gets taken away, there will be a ton of happy prophunt regulars.
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As much as I despise mini-gun users in prop hunt I kind of like having them available. Yeah I get irritated when people can't be bothered to 'try' in prop hunt and use shotguns or miniguns, but in a sense you do get good running practice when a heavy is onto you. In most cases there is a wall/corner near for ducking/dodging if a minigun has your scent. Some heavies do go for melee/shotgun approach though which I rather like seeing because it's rare. The only times I'd say the minigun is truely 'OP' is in the maps with very large open areas like the top floor in CChotel, Most of Swithcheroo, Basalt, Brawl etc. The problem is that when a heavy knows where you are they keep on you at which point it is likely that another hunter will lock onto you as well, which is ok, because that's the game.
But yeah, open areas combined with the minigun 'knock-back' is what I am against since, as I think I may have said before, it stops a prop running 'freely'.
Anyways...yeah. :)
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I honestly really like it when i see a heavy to secondary/melee combo. But, the minute i see or hear the minigun. My face goes from :D to D:<
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btw: this post mostly came about because every one of the regulars (including me) were getting really mad at someone for using the heavy and his minigun...
Not me. See the quote above.
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But yeah, open areas combined with the minigun 'knock-back' is what I am against since, as I think I may have said before, it stops a prop running 'freely'.
Air strafing.
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You must teach me this... :P
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Air strafing.
You have to take somewhere between 50-70 damage from the minigun while in the air before you build up enough horizontal momentum to get a non-negligible amount of distance from air strafing. Running away from a heavy is in nearly all cases a bad idea unless you can put some cover between you and him. You're better off jumping over his head and hoping he's a bad pub heavy that can't track.
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May I make a suggestion about the candy cane?
When the last prop alive is using this I think the health pack drop is a little unbalanced considering the that on kill you get full health anyway and any hunters who get near are likely to get blatted to oblivion anyway. So in effect the pack becomes extra health for later and for those who are very good as the last prop, the map becomes like Kakariko with it's health packs everywhere and I find that the extra health bonus is unbalanced. What are your thoughts?
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that is one of the stupidest things i've ever read.
You want a scout that can be against a team of 16 pyros to be NERFED?
what the fuck
also if you're a smart pyro player you can steal the hp packs for yourself
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this server has reached a whole new level of nerf everything
this is one of the reasons i stopped playing
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Again, contribution level is very close to nothing there eski, drop the trash talk for once in your life.
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my contribution to the thread is that you're wrong and candy cane should be left as it is
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To be fair, that is a pretty stupid idea Marshii.
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I wouldn't say 'stupid'. Obviously it isn't in agreement with others so... just meh. I'd rather people attack the argument than the people making the argument.
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Dear gosh, can you people ever go ONE suggestion or ONE post without yelling, screaming, bashing, etc.? It's a suggestion. No need to tell a person they are STUPID for giving a suggestion.
Instead of bashing everyone for having a different opinon, contriubte to the conversation. Don't agree with a suggestion? State, calmly, why you think it should not be changed. There's no need for the name calling and the immature remarks. We're not going to listen and make changes based on the whiners who constantly do this.
Now, as for my opinion on the candy cane, I honestly think it's fine as is. Yes, you get health on a kill, but if you are on a map with few health packs, that health pack from a few seconds ago could mean the difference between burning alive and killing the rest of the hunting team. Like it was stated, if there's a full team of hunters, that's 1 v 16. The odds are already against just about anyone.
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The Candy Cane is fine how it is. Its your reward for having balls and taking on an entire team of hunters and getting a kill out of it. Like Eskimo said, if you're smart (like me) you can steal the unclaimed health pack from the prop and fuck them over. Nothing more rewarding than denying the final prop what they thought was a given and raping them in the end.
Edit: this is what I've said many times about if it aint broke don't fix it. Just leave the mod alone for once.
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hey luve ur a stinky head :P :P :-* :-* :-* :-* 8) 8)
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hey luve ur a stinky head :P :P :-* :-* :-* :-* 8) 8)
ur stinky 8)
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nerf flare guns and mantreads plzzzz ! ! ! : )))))
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Let's buff shotguns while we're at it. They're not killing me near fast enough.
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Let's buff the flaregun. They don't cause instadeath instantly enough.
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The flaregun has been the same since it came out, correct? Why change it now?
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The flaregun has been the same since it came out, correct? Why change it now?
I don't think he meant it seriously, but more in a sarcastic way.
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Since we are all being sarcastic with our suggestions despite there being another thread for them, how about changing the gravity so that any jump causes you to die from fall damage as a result of falling too fast? Or...Or... Edit the mod so it's a point and click game rather than an FPS?
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Props should immediately die when a Pyro so much as looks at them. Screw Heavys, though. They should be limited to tickle mittens.
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http://forums.saxtonhell.com/index.php?topic=879.0
Pls
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The flaregun has been the same since it came out, correct? Why change it now?
Well why are we changing anything since most settings have been the same since they came out? Very inconsistent with changes around here.
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I wasn't so much being sarcastic. I actually do want those things to be nerfed, and seeing as the server is in nerf everything mode, I thought I could sneak in instead of being bombarded by <SILLY HEADS> saying that they aren't OP, and shotguns are. I say nerf flare guns to where they do maybe mini crits, that should be enough.
Shotguns are pretty much OK I guess, don't need any buffs/
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So if we are removing advantages of each weapon, why not have stock loadout only, or even flamethrower only?
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I see no problem with that.
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are you saying that flare should have an advantage? it already does 90 damage total, which is A LOT for just hitting someone, even without any crits. your suggestion of having stock only is beside the point, although it wouldnt really be much of a problem. and i don't see why you think that because flare would get nerfed, you would have NO chance at killing someone from range?
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Flare gun does a base damage of 30, not 90. It only does 90 with crits.
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So you're saying if I got 125 health, get lit just enough to set me on fire to 120 health, the 90 damage would leave me 30 health? Cuz when that whole thing happens to me, I die instantly. I fuckin hate math too yall makin me do this.
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Presuming we're going with a standard Flamethrower at a very close range (find a prop, flame+flare before it can run from it's hiding spot), the very minium amount of damage that flamethower is going to do is about 7 hp. That's just assuming you click your mouse button only once and not holding it down for a second or two, nor is it taking into account afterburn damage. Considering those of us who use this method typically hold down our M1 button for about a second or two before flaring, it's going to end up doing about 20-30 damage, still not taking into account afterburn. By the time the flare hits, between the damage of the flamethrower and the afterburn while switching, that prop is likely to be dead. If not, it will be in another second due to the afterburn of the flare.
Now, as for the degreaser, which I personally use, it does about 1 hp less of damage both with the actual flame and the afterburn (which, with the almost instant switch to the flare, the afterburn gets replaced by the flare's anyways). This typically leaves the flare needing more time for the afterburn to kill a prop or the initial flaming needs to be done for a slightly longer time. Both options I use depending on if I know who I'm flaming or the location of the prop. I prefer leaving the prop to slowly die at the hands of my flare's afterburn, but I can't do that when there are people who can still manage to get health before that afterburn kills them. :(
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see, there's this thing where people can chase props :)
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Like luve said, flare doesn't usually instakill unless the prop in question sits there being flamed. If you can be bothered to move and you realize someone found you it's relatively easy to avoid being instaflared in the first place. Besides, pro instakillers know axtinguisher is the way to go. 8)
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I sure as hell don't sit there while getting flamed, but one quick tap on the mouse and a followup flare will instakill me. Its the same effect as tap-flame and axetinguisher.
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Someone who bothers to get good with flare has a CLEAR advantage over shotgun users, even if the shotgunners have perfect aim.
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There's almost no possible way that a person is only going to lighty tap their m1 to only do that one thing of damage with the flamethrower. It's going to do more than just 7 damage gauranteed.
Also, anyone who learns how to use any weapon is going to do better than others. Market gardener for example. Have you not seen the amount of people recently who can use that thing and get top of the scoreboard with it? It's all in the practice and knowing how to use a weapon. People don't pull these tricks out of thin air.
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Note how I said that people good with flare have a clear advantage over shotgun users, EVEN IF THE SHOTGUNNERS HAVE PERFECT AIM.
fixed that up a bit for you : )
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Feel free to explain how, considering it seems to be easier to shoot any hitscan weapon and get a hit comapred to a projectile weapon such as the flaregun or detonator. :)
It also happens to be much easier to dodge projectiles than hitscans, since the projectile weapon actually needs to be planned based on where you think a person is going to be at a second or two ahead. It's not as hard as you'd think to dodge flares. Even I give up chasing certain people since I can never hit them. :P
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People good with a flare can hit as consistently as someone with a shotgun.
Doesn't matter, it could take 5 shotgun shots while chasing and still not kill a prop, but if you fire 5 flares at a prop, you're probably going to insta-kill the prop with only 1 of them, even if you miss all the rest.
Maybe that's because you're bad. :P
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Unless that prop was already on fire or had low health, that flare isn't going to insta-kill someone. Like I said earlier, a flare only does 30 damage without crits. And by the time you can shoot those 5 flares, the shotgun has already shot more than that. Comparing them shot-to-shot doesn't work too well. Heck, comparing two different types of weapons doesn't work well, either.
And don't take anything I say about the shotgun the wrong way. I personally think it's fine as is.
I've also been trying to come up with a solution to perhaps have the reserve shooter not as nerfed. Just haven't had much time (or patience with this cruddy phone) to do some number crunching. That thing does like, at most 10 or 15 damage. And that's with luck it seems. :P
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Question: Why is Mangler banned but Bison isn't?
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Question: Why is Mangler banned but Bison isn't?
because it used to 1-2 shot props and had a 5 clip
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Out of curiosity, what were our thoughts on the new Powerjack?
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My thought is that the speedboost serves to make the powerjack a (maybe?) viable alternative to something such as the axtinguisher.
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powerjack just makes the insta flare loadout more op, now pyros can run 15% faster than scouts and pretty much insta kill them
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Due to wildly popular request, I've added a feature that will self damage heavies while they have their miniguns revved up.
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for fucks sake
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Thank you based Voidy.
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Due to wildly popular request, I've added a feature that will self damage heavies while they have their miniguns revved up.
I take it this will not stack to double damage when they actually shoot the thing? Double damage to them would not be fair at all.
(Personally I'm against damage while revved up but that's not what I'm talking about here, just an fyi :P )
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I take it this will not stack to double damage when they actually shoot the thing? Double damage to them would not be fair at all.
Correct, the damage will only apply when revved up, not when firing. It wouldn't have been double damage anyway, the revved up damage is considerably lower than the damage done when firing.