Saxton Hell Forums
Server Discussion => PropHunt Hell => Topic started by: Hoodie on November 20, 2012, 05:57:24 pm
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Hey there. So myself and a few other regulars of the prophunt server started questioning something. Why are there no prophunt admins?
Rules are constantly broken over on prophunt, and as minuscule as they may seem to some, the regulars and general community despises people who break them. One of which being ghosting. Ghosting is listed as a rule, but is only taken as a suggestion or side note for people. Daily, repeat ghosting to those told not to happens, bothering and ruining the games experience.
Last month we had the Joshy/Doom incident with the exploit. If we had a prophunt regular on, this would have been solved much quicker, not saying that it wasn't dealt with fast enough. I'm just saying this as a moderation sort of thing, where the admin(s) could keep an eye out on the server and make sure the game is being played how it is supposed to be.
Please keep in mind that this is only a suggestion, and while my examples may not seem good enough, various regulars of the prophunt community can relate to most of what I have said.
Thank you for reading this, just something I wanted to get out there.
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I asked about dis a long time ago and I think Voided just wishes to keep it as it is so nobody goes power crazy. Lotta lil bitches out there get carried away.
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To the admins:
I agree with this proposal. These aren't game ruining rules being broken, but it definately affects the game and it quite annoynig to many people who play on a regular basis. This is mainly ghosting and spamming. And while I know that the admins are supposed to monitor all the servers, which they do very well and come to help when requested, it would be helpful to make a few trustworthy, regular players maybe like a moderator. I know many people that would support this and would be very happy if you went through with it.
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I've been itching to get back into PH recently (and curse whoever decided to steal my mouse), and there are constantly ghosters when I've been on. They've always been a problem. Even if someone were to be given muting powers, and not the full blown moderator powers, that would be an immense help.
And I know how it is to try and find trustworthy people who won't abuse their power. I've been in a moderator position before (Not TF2, but it's all still a basic concept), and I ended up quitting because the admin wouldn't take care of another moderator who did abuse their power. Ah, well, that place completely died out anyways. Wonder why.
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Not a regular on PH by any means, but like Dragon said, giving a few trustworthy regulars on there muting and gagging powers would probably help a lot.
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See that's the thing. Maybe I used the wrong word. Instead of a full blown admin, something like a prophunt moderator. So that way, in the very unlikely situation that a Mod/Admin did abuse his/her powers constantly they would be able to be taken down.
A trial admin or a trail mod is the word that is coming to my mind about this. The concept of that idea could be applied here.
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There are other options, such as only showing dead players chat to other dead players and muting someone once they are dead, but that might get annoying as well.
We could turn on a votemute option and a votegag option for this server... Or just go with the mod/admin idea.
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At least votekick with something like a 5 minute ban. That would discourage most trolls.
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Vote kick would be a good idea but due to most of the newer members comming in with their groups of friends, or somebody knowing the spammer or the ghoster, I can easily seeing this become out of hand. Not a bad idea though, as it could be useful when there are no admins/mods around.
Same can be said about the Mod/Admin thing but the deal is, The admins would choose who that individual/individuals would be, if not referenceing from the prophunt community. People well trusted and unbiased would eliminate this problem ever arising.
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Thing is, people get bored of Prophunt one way or another. 1 generation goes, one generation comes. The list of Prophunt Admins would just keep building up, as the old ones stopped playing prophunt.
Although, I do support this idea, the prophunt managing on GM turned out really badly. I swear, I have not seen a person from their "full" list of admins this year. No joke.
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So after reading up some of the past buried threads, I found this same idea mentioned but with people nominating themselves.
No, just no.
Admin/Mod should be entirely left up to the Admin's decision, with possible referencing from the prophunt regulars. When you ask for an admin anywhere and say your own name, that isn't asking for admins, that's asking for yourself to become an admin. Just something I noticed in the past threads.
Now all to do is await the verdict from the Admins, if they decide to consider the idea. Thanks for the support guys, genuinely appreciate your input to making a better experience for all.
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Thing is, people get bored of Prophunt one way or another. 1 generation goes, one generation comes.
FYI, I've been playing for at least two years. The only reason I would leave a server is if it was no longer fun or enjoyable on that particular server.
It may not be the game that drives people away.
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It typically is. That or extreme rage quitting.
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Typically is ghosting or typically is the game in your viewpoint?
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"Typically" being that people find the game grows old after awhile. This is mostly why there are few old school people like myself still playing this thing. It makes a hard case to stick with it instead of playing another game.
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Having a votemute/gag/ban probably will never happen for the record. It's been brought up before even as a donator-only ability and they didn't go for it. And if it isn't a donator restricted ability it would be constantly abused.
That said the ghosting does get annoying. And the teamkilling teamswitch exploit as well. ..etc
I just don't think they like getting new admins because these are servers that run on donations so finding admins who won't abuse powers or generally piss people off is actually important. Just being a regular really isn't enough.
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True points 9mm. The reason I suggested regulars from the prophunt server itself is because the ghosting and such happen on a daily basis, so would it not make sense to entrust the power of say, a moderator/trail admin/admin/Whatever the solution is to somebody who is usual online anyways.
I don't use the term one because, even though having one would help a large amount, there are timezones and scheduals people have, meaning more than one. Nothing massive like 10, hell no. Just something to cover all the bases.
This also brings me to something I noticed. When this idea was suggested, it was meant as a way of fixing the prophunt we enjoy. But what people think is that if someone should become mod or admin, it should be them. Sure, referencing from the server would be amazing but ultimately, that is the admins call. I think I even said this in my last post, but it won't hurt to readress.
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It doesn't even have to be someone who is as much of a regular on the PH server now as perhaps they once were, but someone who is at least active across the Hell servers and know what they're doing in PH would suffice.
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I would honestly volunteer to be a PH admin, if only to be able to kick players who ghost. Of course, I'm only a newbie and not really known around the servers, but hey, I would try my darndest.
Whatever they do, let's hope it's a swift decision.
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I would like to be the first to point out that we have been heard.
Please welcome our two new Trail Admins: Hipster Glaceon and Luvedragon.
I wish them the best in their future ghosters/mic spammers war. I would also like to say thank you to the Admins about actually listening and producing the start of a long term solution.
Best of luck guys!
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I would also like to congratulate and thank Glaceon and Luvedragon on being our prophunt admins and I wish them the best of luck. Also thank you to all the admins for helping us out. I'm sure you two will be a big help.
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Thanks guys, we're looking forward to being able to help out. c:
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Does this mean you're gonna be playing again luv? :D
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I've definitely been wanting to play again recently. I've already been on more than I have, but once I get my mouse in the mail, I'll certainly be playing even more. :)
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My view on this is that we definitely need more admins / moderators on the servers at any given time, it's like running an airport with security that only operates part time - not good.
Of course there is still the problem of having too many after a while because people leave etc which is where I propose the following system;
Votes held on who should be admins for a limited term of 12 months at which point a new vote can be held - this takes into account old generation attrition and new generations entering into the game.
Personally, I think there should be in the region of 3 to 5 PH admins so that the likelihood of an admin being online at any given time is greatly increased.
The way that voting might work is for people to be given a number of votes equal to the number of admin places plus one and then they can vote on users in order of preference i.e. most preferable gets 5 points, next gets 4 and so on.
Awareness of this vote could be raised by announcements in game as with the voting on quality of maps (terrible to excellent) although if the ability for a pre-required number of hours played on the server to access the vote is possible, this would be preferred as then you would not have randomers coming on a just voting on names, we want informed voting for best results.
This is only my prototypical proposition but I think it addresses many of the problems people have raised with regard to PH admins.
--- Marshii
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This was in reply to the initial posts in this thread and is by no means a contradiction to the measures now in place, but is a possibility for future consideration if even greater efficiency was sought after.
All that is left is for me to also add my congratulations to Luve and Glaceon.
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THIS IS NOT A REPUBLIC
All Hail unser Führer Voided!!!!!!!
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43332504/BrONLPZnCM-4.png)
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I'll try to concisely summarize my thoughts on adding admins and things such as votekick/votemute/votewhatever.
My opinions as a server operator have been mostly formed as a result of playing TF2 and observing the rules and abilities as a player on other communities.
One of the things I absolutely detest—because of this experience—is any server running voting plugins that can affect over players.
Back in the day when I originally played TF2, I played on the voogru dodgeball server, and voogru had put on a votekick plugin at some point in time.
As you can imagine, this plugin was abused in a wide range of ways: from groups of players who either got annoyed at someone's voice, to trolls who just wanted to kick another player they didn't like. Even I got kicked a few times for things not a single sensible admin would normally kick someone for.
Eventually, all this abuse led to the plugin being removed from the server.
The lesson learned? Giving players the right to vote will introduce just as many problems as it would solve. It's not a good enough solution.
As for adding more admins, we have to weigh two options: strict enforcement of the rules, and the chance for admin abuse. We all know the horrors stories about power hungry admins.
In fact, we even got burnt by that once. We used to have a trial admin who would sit on our trade server and effectively give some players special treatment over others, going as far as slapping and slaying people he thought annoyed him. I just don't want to run into this situation again.
The problem with prophunt is quite simply ghosting. If it's an issue causing severe problems, we can simply remove deadchat and alltalk and the problems will go away. Of course, then everyone pays the price of not being able to hold normal conversations with alive players while being dead.
While we had no problem selecting new trial admins for servers this time around, as I've limited their abilities to only muting and gagging to help alleviate the issue of ghosting, we still wanted to take the right steps and select the people best fit for an admin position.
One thing you'll have to realize is that eliminating trouble makers completely—and therefore, ghosting—is an impossibility, as is having admin coverage at all times.
But my question is: why do we need so many admins? Is ghosting really so much of an issue that it requires almost constant attention on the server?
There are other options besides having someone present to babysit players all the time. For one, our admins will happily look at reports of people ghosting, provided that we're supplied with at least SteamIDs so we can check the server logs. Pictures and demos along with the SteamIDs would be even better.
While it won't solve a ghosting issue immediately, repeat offenders will get their chat and voice privileges removed and slowly but surely people will learn to follow the rules.
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But my question is: why do we need so many admins? Is ghosting really so much of an issue that it requires almost constant attention on the server?
Ghosting is a daily issue. Hourly even.
To those who don't play reguarly, this might not sound like something that requires attention but to most of us on the prophunt server, this ruins the game experience, even causing some people to quit entirely.
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Ghosting is a daily issue. Hourly even.
To those who don't play reguarly, this might not sound like something that requires attention but to most of us on the prophunt server, this ruins the game experience, even causing some people to quit entirely.
But without removing alltalk and dead chat, the admins would have to come up with some sort of schedule to be on to have an admin on prop hunt at all times. While this is possible, I don't see it as a likely fix to the problem. Just keep reporting here when it happens and someone will take care of it when they see it. It's easier to get ahold of the admins here than on steam or by hopping servers.
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Am I one of the few that doesn't see this apparent overwhelming amount of ghosting?
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Am I one of the few that doesn't see this apparent overwhelming amount of ghosting?
I don't either. Ghosting over the mic/game chat is almost nonexistent and ghosting through steam friends chat is even less. Also, most people who can aim don't ghost so it's usually not a problem outrunning the groups of friends who decide to.
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I completely agree with the outlawing of votekick/ban/mute etc .
With regard to the issue of ghosting, Hoodie, I think that hourly is probably an overstatement but it does happen daily. The problem with ghosting is that it doesn't have to be in game chat, friends may be on opposite teams while being in the same skype call and there would be no way of policing this unless they aroused suspicion.
Possibly what needs to be done is to raise the awareness of the rules with players who are not regulars on the server. I'm not sure about anyone else but I rarely read the chat during rounds so any messages about rules would go unnoticed. Maybe an initial solution to this is to use the same system for when players are asked to vote for map ratings, but just to use that 'pop-up box' as a message board explaining the rule of ghosting and that reasonable suspicion is all that is needed in order for a report to an admin to be investigated.
This may be a start but I do maintain that a group of admins for PH would be beneficial.
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With respect Box and Shooter, you guys are so skilled at the game that ghosting either goes unnoticed by you or doesn't affect you anyway. With regard to your point Box about not seeing the issue - you are rarely on PH and so can't really make an accurate judgement.
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The problem with ghosting is that it doesn't have to be in game chat, friends may be on opposite teams while being in the same skype call and there would be no way of policing this unless they aroused suspicion.
reasonable suspicion is all that is needed in order for a report to an admin to be investigated.
Reasonable suspicion? How are we going to enforce that? Interrogate people and force them to divulge who they spend time with on steam and skype? That's not very feasible, and would border on totalitarian administration.
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Reasonable suspicion? How are we going to enforce that? Interrogate people and force them to divulge who they spend time with on steam and skype? That's not very feasible, and would border on totalitarian administration.
Big Voidy is watching.
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Reasonable suspicion? How are we going to enforce that? Interrogate people and force them to divulge who they spend time with on steam and skype? That's not very feasible, and would border on totalitarian administration.
You can mostly always tell when you are being ghosted out because a pyro will stop and look around slowly, stare at you and then attack. All I'm saying is it is at these times that what 'ghosting' is and it's implications are brought to the knowledge of everyone on the server. I find it slightly insulting for people to think I would suggest totalitarian measures; that is ridiculous.
What I suggest above would need to be repeated several times in order for me to have reasonable suspicion although most ghosting occurs in the game chat so 'interrogation' and forcing people to admit is unnecessary and quite outrageous.
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You can mostly always tell when you are being ghosted out because a pyro will stop and look around slowly, stare at you and then attack. All I'm saying is it is at these times that what 'ghosting' is and it's implications are brought to the knowledge of everyone on the server. I find it slightly insulting for people to think I would suggest totalitarian measures; that is ridiculous.
What I suggest above would need to be repeated several times in order for me to have reasonable suspicion although most ghosting occurs in the game chat so 'interrogation' and forcing people to admit is unnecessary and quite outrageous.
My point was that that type of ghosting is not enforceable. We can't punish players because someone can "mostly always tell" when someone is ghosting through other lines of communication. There needs to be clear cut evidence in order for the admins to take action.
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Of course you need evidence, but the (hollow) threat should be enough to dissuade those from continuing.
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I know ghosting is a problem and I would agree that it happens on SH, but I would have to side with box and Voidy in that it really isn't very prevalent or serious. Sure it happens every once and a while, but nine times out of ten it is just someone who doesn't know any better and a stern word or two is enough to get them to stop. I understand nobody likes it and it disrupts gameplay but I don't really think it warrants any extra work on the side of the admins at the moment.
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Also the noobs tend to think everybody is ghosting when a lot of people just know the props and maps well. I look at my peripheral a lot so I spot props that aren't even in my general direction of travel.
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Also the noobs tend to think everybody is ghosting when a lot of people just know the props and maps well. I look at my peripheral a lot so I spot props that aren't even in my general direction of travel.
I'm fairly surprised the admins don't have to deal with a lot of complaints of "NO REALLY GUYS X PLAYER IS HACKING!!!". We get it often enough in game chat.
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As long as kousti and Henri3 don't decide to come over here, you guys don't have a ghosting problem... >.>
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Just a quick thing that came to my attention recently; many are finding loop holes in the rules section as to what ghosting is - I can't remember off the top of my head what is written there but I don't think it encompasses props and/or hiding spots (even if dead on blue etc).
Again, usually lots of regulars on a server will give 'stern words' and usually ghosting will cease, I'm just mindful that you might not have regulars on the server to do this on some occasions.
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Just a quick thing that came to my attention recently; many are finding loop holes in the rules section as to what ghosting is - I can't remember off the top of my head what is written there but I don't think it encompasses props and/or hiding spots (even if dead on blue etc).
Again, usually lots of regulars on a server will give 'stern words' and usually ghosting will cease, I'm just mindful that you might not have regulars on the server to do this on some occasions.
The rule says not to give out locations of RED team members (besides your own spot) and some people think that makes it fine to say what prop people are, usually when it's down to one or two props.
I don't think it's a giant problem compared to giving out spots because I already know what props should and shouldn't be there for every map but I suppose it could help people who don't know what they're doing. However, I don't see it changing even if the rule is changed because not many people bother to read the rules.
Maybe if the server specific rules were added to the MOTD that appears on map start and the MOTD was forced for 3-5 seconds before it could be closed?
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Start a poll or somthing about this?
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Ghosting as I remember it from The Old Days:
-Spectators announcing what props are where
-Red teammates announcing what props are where
-Blu teammates can call out props, including the last prop alive, until they are shot dead. Once dead, you can't spectate a teammate and use their camera look to call out the remaining props. Just because you can spot it on their camera doesn't mean they can.
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The rule says not to give out locations of RED team members (besides your own spot) and some people think that makes it fine to say what prop people are, usually when it's down to one or two props.
I don't think it's a giant problem compared to giving out spots because I already know what props should and shouldn't be there for every map but I suppose it could help people who don't know what they're doing. However, I don't see it changing even if the rule is changed because not many people bother to read the rules.
It still constitutes ghosting, however, since it makes the hunters look for specific props and therefore gives them an unfair advantage. I'll update the rules to state that as well.
Maybe if the server specific rules were added to the MOTD that appears on map start and the MOTD was forced for 3-5 seconds before it could be closed?
I'll put that on my todo list. Sans the forced part, I don't think that'd go over very well.
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It still constitutes ghosting, however, since it makes the hunters look for specific props and therefore gives them an unfair advantage. I'll update the rules to state that as well.
Fair enough, I was just saying that it doesn't help the hunters they should be worried about. I don't care if he's a milk jug if I've run my route around the whole map and missed him.
I'll put that on my todo list. Sans the forced part, I don't think that'd go over very well.
Only reason I added the forced part was because no one would read it otherside. :P
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Speaking of which, a few of the regulars and I have been talking and we feel there needs to be a stronger admin presence in Prophunt. I understand Luve doesn't have the best of internet and with Roar working; he can't be there all the time. Early mornings and nights when Roar can't be on are especially filled with ghosters and overall unruly rule breakers. Taking screencaps and reporting them later is barely making a dent.
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I agree with Loc, but got a feelin i aint gonna like the choices for admins. For the record Luve does a really great job when she's around.
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I also agree that prophunt needs a stronger admin presence. It feels like the number of times someone breaks the rules and needs to be dealt with each day is higher than it has been in the past few months. As Loc said, Roar isn't on all the time, so plenty of rule breaking goes unpunished.
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Taking screencaps and reporting them later is barely making a dent.
I dare ask where these reports are going as I haven't seen a single one.
I still don't believe the issue is as bad as anyone had described, even in the past before Luve and Glaceon were made admins. Sure, there will always be someone that joins the server and ghosts (possibly even unknowingly; there are players who haven't played prophunt and genuinely don't know what ghosting is), and then some regular will be quick to scream and yell at them about ghosting, and that will be it.
I see it time and time again while watching the server's chat: Player X joins, plays a little, ghosts, gets screamed at, and then learns their lesson. This is the case that I'd say happens most often, and that these aren't the kind of players at we need an admin reaction for.
What admins would be needed for is for players that blatantly ignore the warnings of someone yelling at them to stop ghosting, or players who join and purposely ghost through other means such as skype/steam/etc. These are the cases I see the least.
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gimme admin
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I have a gallery of ghosters and rules breakers set to my google chrome account so I can show Roar and Luve screencaps when they do get on. I even have a few left on my hard-drive and in my steam image gallery if you want to see them.
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Loc for admin 2013
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Loc for admin 2013
(http://images.wikia.com/theamazingworldofgumball/images/8/89/Funny-gif-man-jump-out-the-window.gif)
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loc for BADMIN 2013
eskimo admin yessss
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Loc for admin 2013
So how much did he pay you to say that? :P
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One blowjob coupon.
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Valued at $500 before mail-in rebates.
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Admins should not have propmenu. :)
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So long as donors suffer the same fate, I could not care less about losing propmenu. :P
Unless something has changed where propmenu has been taken away from donors, then ignore this. XP
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Unless time could be put into coding a new prop menu which randomises only 3 available per round per player. Though I have no clue how to do that.