Saxton Hell Forums
Server Discussion => PropHunt Hell => Topic started by: Unknown Haxor on September 11, 2013, 12:46:23 pm
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Hello guys!
I have recently discovered PropHunt for me, yet I am unsure to which server I should stick. I have discovered that Saxton Hell's server has PropHunt 2.10 running. Can anyone list the changes made from 2.09? Is it better?
Thanks in advance
your hopefully new community member
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Whatever Voidy feels like changing. >_>
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So I have looked around a bit and found out that PropHunt is currently maintained by this guy https://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=1972290#post1972290
Actually this means that this is not an official release and therefore should not have a version increase but instead a tag. Also there is no changelog of what voided does? Should the player simply "trust" in the number of the plugin's version? Isn't that kind of dishonest in a way, and in another because you could simple just change the version number, right? Is that possible and/or the case?
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This is the first case I've heard of any normal player actually paying any attention to version numbers of a mod. :P
Honestly, if something like that bugs you that much, you're likely better off just not playing on this server. Yes, there are changes that are different from "official" prophunt versions, but there are other servers with such changes, too. Off the top of my head, SourceOP has a fairly different version running. If you want the most official prophunt you can get, GM is the place to be.
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It is not bugging me or anything, I am just wondering what actually changed, because there are so many different versions yet I could barely make out any changes. In this case even none.
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This is the first case I've heard of any normal player actually paying any attention to version numbers of a mod. :P
Honestly, if something like that bugs you that much, you're likely better off just not playing on this server. Yes, there are changes that are different from "official" prophunt versions, but there are other servers with such changes, too. Off the top of my head, SourceOP has a fairly different version running. If you want the most official prophunt you can get, GM is the place to be.
For what it's worth, SourceOP's prop hunt mod is a from-the-ground LUA rewrite of GM's prop hunt config from three years ago. It hasn't been updated as GM's has and in that sense is more original than the one we have here and even GM's itself as I don't think Dark maintains it anymore.
It is not bugging me or anything, I am just wondering what actually changed, because there are so many different versions yet I could barely make out any changes. In this case even none.
The version number changes every time ANYTHING is changed, such as banning new botkiller weapons or changing weapon damage around. Off the top of my head, the changes between this version and the one GM runs on are Reserve Shooter damage changed from 80% or 100% (depending on server) to either 25% or 50%, heavies taking damage on spin-up instead of shooting, crusader's crossbow unlocked with no healing effect on allies.
Keep in mind that I've played maybe 5 or 6 times in the past 5 or 6 months so I might have missed something.
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the number looks cooler
also, GM actually just takes it from alliedmodders because Dark is busy, and nobody who actually made it works on it anymore. just people who think they're making it better
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Hello guys!
I have recently discovered PropHunt for me, yet I am unsure to which server I should stick. I have discovered that Saxton Hell's server has PropHunt 2.10 running. Can anyone list the changes made from 2.09? Is it better?
Thanks in advance
your hopefully new community member
Last I checked, the Saxton Hell version didn't even resemble the version on AlliedModders anyway.
the number looks cooler
also, GM actually just takes it from alliedmodders because Dark is busy, and nobody who actually made it works on it anymore. just people who think they're making it better
Yup, clearly I only "think" I'm improving prop hunt by making it so that props don't stick into the floor. And push the round timer off to the game and change the first 30 seconds to setup time. And have correct prop names when displayed to users. And remove set bonuses to prevent players from cheesing. And now I'm working on a new weapon restriction systems to fix weapons that clearly don't work in the game mode.
And yes, there have been bugs from time to time, such as ph_devils_canyon_a1 not having a named control point master and ph_kakariko_b1 having an extra round timer because the person who converted it from a cp map forgot to remove it. Which is my fault for assuming that prop hunt maps would, you know, be standard arena maps.
But hey, lets hear what things you've done to make prop hunt better!
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Yup, clearly I only "think" I'm improving prop hunt by making it so that props don't stick into the floor.
Yeah that fix fukt up a lotta good props and creative hiding places.
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Last I checked, the Saxton Hell version didn't even resemble the version on AlliedModders anyway.
Yup, clearly I only "think" I'm improving prop hunt by making it so that props don't stick into the floor. And push the round timer off to the game and change the first 30 seconds to setup time. And have correct prop names when displayed to users. And remove set bonuses to prevent players from cheesing. And now I'm working on a new weapon restriction systems to fix weapons that clearly don't work in the game mode.
That first thing ruined a lot of good spots. Prophunt was fine for 5 years without the timer being different. Never noticed prop names being wrong. If you had bothered to get the Milkman/Attendant set then why shouldn't you be able to use it? Could you list those weps?
Oh and you forgot to mention buffing frontier justice to 87 damage.
Why don't you fix the props not getting a kill when a pyro dies to self-damage?
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Wow, I have almost forgotten about this.
Powerlord, you are doing an amazing job so far. But honestly, I would not stand for such disrespectfulness from other admins and their communities who steal your code, hate your (good) changes, and use you for their advantage when it comes to their privatized plugins.
You seem like a very gifted guy in that department and I would love to see your work acknowledged and respected, but I'm afraid that's not possible with this very specific plugin. It would be stupid to keep up with this dickheads and see your potential and time go to waste.
If I were you I wouldn't make myself their puppet and indirectly support them.
Give it some time and they will run out of ideas and ruin their prophunt servers and then you can pick it up again under different circumstances and present your refresh of this.
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You do realize Powerlord isn't the original maker of the mod, correct? So, technically speaking, he also took the original code and changed it to what he sees fit.
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I think you do not understand my posting because he is making his changes public and has other motives in mind.
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You don't have to play here, you know. It's just as easy to go find a prophunt server with the "pure" code, rather than stick around here and complain about some minor changes.
As Box and Eskimo pointed out, some changes (that have or have not been implemented), well, perhaps shouldn't have been changed from the original code. 2.09 strips Bonk, which I think is absolutely insane, but whatever Prophunt has had the same thing going for as long as it did, and while improvement is certainly welcome, perhaps it would be best to also try and stick with what the original coder had in mind, or even ask those players who have been playing since the mod came out, or at least know what they're talking about, what they believe could be improved upon.
And, if you make your changes public, one should expect them to be changed within a community or be lashed against. Unless it is made private and says that no changes are allowed, then we're free to make these changes within our community. Again, if anyone has any problems with how this server is run, please, do yourself a favor and find another prophunt server.
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[...]And, if you make your changes public, one should expect them to be changed within a community or be lashed against. Unless it is made private and says that no changes are allowed[...]
Someone's expectations don't justify anything and tbh the sourcemod license those plugins are being released under has a few words to say about this.
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Like I said. Please feel free to find another server if our changes bug you that much.
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It should be obvious that this has gotten to somewhere where this is not about choosing a server for my likings. So your answer has nothing to do with the discussion whatsoever, btw.
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So, hold on, I'm a little confused. Correct me if I'm wrong but the problem here is that Saxton is making their own changes to their own server. Surely the whole point of modding is just that; making your own changes. And i'm sure if anyone approached Saxton about maybe using some of the changes here they would be welcome, correct?
I've talked to a couple of other servers admins/owners about possibly using some of saxton's plugins but they turned their nose up at it. Surely it is a matter of choice therefore and ultimately a choice of the server used. I find saxton rather 'unique' when it comes to prophunt compared to for example gamingmasters and all the other ones bar SourceOP who I believe have a rather 'primitive' ph mod installed. Again; it's a matter of choice as to whether you go there or not and it's their choice not to sort out some of the frankly 'clunky' gameplay mechanics that exist on that server.
I'd be interested to see what DarkImmortal, Powerlord etal's opinions of Saxton Hell's changes are and of the server in general. Maybe that might be a better starting place rather than here. Think of this analogy; bad / offensive service in a store checkout; do you make a scene at the checkout, or do you contact the manager?
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This analogy is flawed. You should rather think of a reseller without any permission.
Also I have been on Prophunt Hell and have seen no changes so far. So I don't think there is any "superiority" compared to other server's using the prophunt plugin.
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So Saxton Hell doesn't have permission to play around with it's own server?
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That is still incorrectly understood. The issue would be in the license that says changes should a) be made public and b) not be used for own profit.
What is happening here is that code published under this license is modified (or just advertised to be) and exclusively used by a server of a 3rd party to make advantage of the original plugin to build a community upon it (and from that gain profit).
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Alrighty, I think it's time to stop feeding the troll.
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Alrighty, I think it's time to stop feeding the troll.
^_^ Seconded!
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Ofc an admin disapproves but you should at least be objective enough to not accuse me of trolling and instead close this without any comment.
But hey, what to expect. oO
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That is still incorrectly understood. The issue would be in the license that says changes should a) be made public and b) not be used for own profit.
What is happening here is that code published under this license is modified (or just advertised to be) and exclusively used by a server of a 3rd party to make advantage of the original plugin to build a community upon it (and from that gain profit).
You may wish to review the GPL license. Here's a handy website for that: http://www.tldrlegal.com/license/gnu-general-public-license-v3-%28gpl-3%29
Additionally, the SM website contains a few FAQs about the license and derivative works (which prophunt is): http://www.sourcemod.net/license.php
That being said, the license quite clearly states that the source code only needs to be made available when the software is distributed. We're not distributing, so there is no legal requirement for me to disclose my changes or the code.
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Alrighty, I think it's time to stop feeding the troll.
I could've told you that 8 posts ago. >_>
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So Saxton Hell doesn't have permission to play around with it's own server?
Saxton Hell can/should do what it wants, but it should drop the universal ranking system that ranked servers share, because they also share the same tune ups n shit. Its not fair to go to shitty free propmenu server and compare it to a "stock" ph server and compare it to a modified ph server like this one.
...this goes back to suggestion to drop the rankings, or stop tweaking the mod here.
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You may wish to review the GPL license. Here's a handy website for that: [url]http://www.tldrlegal.com/license/gnu-general-public-license-v3-%28gpl-3%29[/url]
Additionally, the SM website contains a few FAQs about the license and derivative works (which prophunt is): [url]http://www.sourcemod.net/license.php[/url]
That being said, the license quite clearly states that the source code only needs to be made available when the software is distributed. We're not distributing, so there is no legal requirement for me to disclose my changes or the code.
Judging by the "discussion" you've had with powerlord, the current maintainer of the plugin, on alliedmods (as far as I have read it), general opinion begs to differ. And so does the understanding of "distribution" in a juristic context. After all this plugin is made to distribute a special service which you offer by hosting it on your server. In a way you are a distributor.
Also (without knowing if and what the changes are) it's not a coincidence to set the version number just 0.01 up in comparison to the current branch (as you call it afaik). There's no denying that you did this on purpose. ;) The only question is with how much honor and honesty you're handling this.
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Judging by the "discussion" you've had with powerlord, the current maintainer of the plugin, on alliedmods (as far as I have read it), general opinion begs to differ. And so does the understanding of "distribution" in a juristic context. After all this plugin is made to distribute a special service which you offer by hosting it on your server. In a way you are a distributor.
Also (without knowing if and what the changes are) it's not a coincidence to set the version number just 0.01 up in comparison to the current branch (as you call it afaik). There's no denying that you did this on purpose. ;) The only question is with how much honor and honesty you're handling this.
Please stop putting words into our license's mouth. Using a plugin on a server in no way counts as distribution, and nothing illegal has been done here.
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Judging by the "discussion" you've had with powerlord, the current maintainer of the plugin, on alliedmods (as far as I have read it), general opinion begs to differ. And so does the understanding of "distribution" in a juristic context. After all this plugin is made to distribute a special service which you offer by hosting it on your server. In a way you are a distributor.
Also (without knowing if and what the changes are) it's not a coincidence to set the version number just 0.01 up in comparison to the current branch (as you call it afaik). There's no denying that you did this on purpose. ;) The only question is with how much honor and honesty you're handling this.
That's... Not how it works at all. But hey, it's totally okay to be confused about software license legalese! It's a tricky subject that requires years and years of study and practice.
I think, in honor of your efforts here on our forums, I'll bump up our version number again just because. Because you're absolutely correct. I bump the version on purpose. That's the neat thing about the SM license, I can bump the version as much as I like.
Edit: Before anyone takes this seriously, the last sentence was an attempt at comedy.
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I'd forgotten about this thread until someone sent me a PM about it on AlliedModders.
Yeah that fix fukt up a lotta good props and creative hiding places.
That first thing ruined a lot of good spots.
I think it says a lot about this community's players that you prefer playing the game with buggy props.
When Geit messaged me the other day and told me to take what people were saying with a grain of salt, I thought he was talking about the PropHunt suggestions thread over on GamingMasters...
Prophunt was fine for 5 years without the timer being different. Never noticed prop names being wrong.
The timer change was done for two reasons:
1. To get the first 30 seconds of the round to show up as Setup time. While you may have been playing Prop Hunt for 5 years, not everyone has and being frozen in place for 30 seconds for no apparent reason when playing on BLU was bound to confuse newcomers.
2. To push the game logic into a team_round_timer, which is what the game uses for its round timers. Prop Hunt faked it by adjusting certain server cvars and having its own SourceMod timer that ended the round one second before the actual arena round timer ended it.
So yes, there was already a team_round_timer, I was just moving all the logic I could to it instead of having dual timers which ended the round before the displayed timer said it should have ended.
As for prop names, not only were a lot of props missing names, but it had no way of distinguishing between props from different sets (i.e. props_farm and props_forest), so it'd give you the wrong name for one of the two.
If you had bothered to get the Milkman/Attendant set then why shouldn't you be able to use it? Could you list those weps?
I find it funny that you're complaining about something that server owners could disable by either not having TF2Attributes installed or just by setting ph_stripsetbonuses 0.
Lets face it, the Milkman's +25 health was just cheesy... and had no downside in Prop Hunt. I know I abused the hell out of it until my friends caught on that I had more health than they did. So yes, that was added based directly on my own community's feedback. For that matter, so was fixing the prop offsets.
As for the Attendent set bonus being removed... it didn't work because Prop Hunt already overrides player speed. That's why the Powerjack doesn't speed you up when you have it out.
Oh and you forgot to mention buffing frontier justice to 87 damage.
I've actually changed that in the latest version of Prop Hunt simply by removing the Frontier Justice altogether.
Why don't you fix the props not getting a kill when a pyro dies to self-damage?
Because I don't know how to easily fix it. SDKHooks is what's actually dealing the damage to the player and it appears to override the server's normal idea of recent damage sources.
In theory I could fake it by tracking damage done, but it seems like a lot of work for something that isn't all that common.
You do realize Powerlord isn't the original maker of the mod, correct? So, technically speaking, he also took the original code and changed it to what he sees fit.
Since I've talked with DarkImmortal and Geit, and their own server is running my version I have implicit permission from them to continue it. Heck, DarkImmortal even gave me the stats inc files and Geit even suggested I try my hand at rewriting it to make some improvements. At some point, I may even write a stats system that servers can run instead of being connected to the global stats servers.
As Box and Eskimo pointed out, some changes (that have or have not been implemented), well, perhaps shouldn't have been changed from the original code. 2.09 strips Bonk, which I think is absolutely insane, but whatever
Actually, removing Bonk doesn't work in 2.09 because Prop Hunt doesn't remove items from Scouts when it regenerates them when they're the last prop... but the new, more advanced weapon system can.
Having said that, this is another thing that I did based on my own community's feedback. Specifically, players on my server were getting pissed that the last prop could get 8 seconds of time that they couldn't be hurt. I've actually seen matches that the hunters lost simply because the last prop used Bonk. In a game mode that already favors the props by a wide margin.
I'd be interested to see what DarkImmortal, Powerlord etal's opinions of Saxton Hell's changes are and of the server in general. Maybe that might be a better starting place rather than here. Think of this analogy; bad / offensive service in a store checkout; do you make a scene at the checkout, or do you contact the manager?
The last time I played on Saxton Hell (when it was running 2.05) it played almost identically to 1.93. I've already had this discussion with VoiDeD on AlliedModders.
Which is why I chimed in on this thread in the first place a few weeks ago.
Oh, and it shouldn't surprise you that I've been making additional changes to Prop Hunt.
Wow, I have almost forgotten about this.
Powerlord, you are doing an amazing job so far. But honestly, I would not stand for such disrespectfulness from other admins and their communities who steal your code, hate your (good) changes, and use you for their advantage when it comes to their privatized plugins.
You seem like a very gifted guy in that department and I would love to see your work acknowledged and respected, but I'm afraid that's not possible with this very specific plugin. It would be stupid to keep up with this dickheads and see your potential and time go to waste.
If I were you I wouldn't make myself their puppet and indirectly support them.
Give it some time and they will run out of ideas and ruin their prophunt servers and then you can pick it up again under different circumstances and present your refresh of this.
I started fixing Prop Hunt for my own community and shared my changes back to the community. This is how pretty much all my plugins work.
Having said that, I'm about to abandon the public version of Freak Fortress 2. My community doesn't like FF2 and the public version is slowly circling the drain... no one else who is currently making changes to it is releasing those changes to the public. I'm also growing tired of the constant in-fighting over on AlliedMods about it.
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Having said that, this is another thing that I did based on my own community's feedback.
The answer to every unnecessary change made ever.
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That's why the Powerjack doesn't speed you up when you have it out.
I've actually changed that in the latest version of Prop Hunt simply by removing the Frontier Justice altogether.
Actually, removing Bonk doesn't work in 2.09 because Prop Hunt doesn't remove items from Scouts when it regenerates them when they're the last prop... but the new, more advanced weapon system can.
Having said that, this is another thing that I did based on my own community's feedback. Specifically, players on my server were getting pissed that the last prop could get 8 seconds of time that they couldn't be hurt. I've actually seen matches that the hunters lost simply because the last prop used Bonk. In a game mode that already favors the props by a wide margin.
Have you seriously only played 40 minutes on ranked servers? You realise opinions can differ throughout servers?
The Powerjack actually DOES speed you up when you take it out.
Why are you removing frontier justice? It's completely uneccessary. The ranked 2 prophunt player pretty much uses it solely, and would be pretty pissed if he couldn't use it anymore.
Bonk doesn't need to be removed. If you're able to get last prop, you should be able to use your items. That's the point.
Maybe you should look at the feedback and opinions of OTHER servers, instead of your own, especially if you're making the mod public.
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The answer to every unnecessary change made ever.
Fine, tell VoiDeD not to use my changes then. It's not like I pulled out a gun and said USE THESE CHANGES OR ELSE to him.
Have you seriously only played 40 minutes on ranked servers? You realise opinions can differ throughout servers?
Non-ranked servers outweigh ranked servers by a wide margin. I don't go looking for ranked servers when I go to play Prop Hunt.
A lot of these changes are based on my experiences on both my own server and other servers. While I was using my own server as an example, it's not the only one I took into account.
The Powerjack actually DOES speed you up when you take it out.
If it does, it's not to a notable extent and certainly not as much as normal. Last time I tried it, I couldn't actually see a speed difference, and I've never actually changed the code related to speed.
Why are you removing frontier justice? It's completely uneccessary. The ranked 2 prophunt player pretty much uses it solely, and would be pretty pissed if he couldn't use it anymore.
I was actually simplifying what I did... which was to replace the Frontier Justice with the stock Shotgun. Because I can do that now.
Having said that, weapons in prop hunt have always been controlled by a config file and servers can easily adjust them without even having to recompile the plugin. There's no requirement even on stat tracked server that you use the default configuration. Hell, I didn't even write the majority of the current one: Tainted, KiRRa, and Unlucky Duck did that (https://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=1870044#post1870044)... including the restriction blocking all the miniguns.
Bonk doesn't need to be removed. If you're able to get last prop, you should be able to use your items. That's the point.
The point is that you have your weapons. Bonk is just pure cheese. Then again, server owners can just leave it enabled if they want. That's the beauty of having these controlled by a configuration file.
Maybe you should look at the feedback and opinions of OTHER servers, instead of your own, especially if you're making the mod public.
Actually, my community isn't the only one I consulted, but whatever. I'm also going to note that I'm making these changes because no one else was willing to step up to the plate and fix some of the issues Prop Hunt has. I gain nothing by doing this. And servers don't have to use my changes.
VoiDeD could continue to use a modified version of 1.93 with all the props stuck in the floor... but I'm going to point out that he didn't. And in a sense, servers using my changes gives me the clout to continue making changes, a power I wouldn't have had if everyone had ignored it in the first place.
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Fine, tell VoiDeD not to use my changes then. It's not like I pulled out a gun and said USE THESE CHANGES OR ELSE to him.
Having said that, weapons in prop hunt have always been controlled by a config file and servers can easily adjust them without even having to recompile the plugin. There's no requirement even on stat tracked server that you use the default configuration.
Indeed, we at GFL are currently looking into your new updates to see if we can make it fit our community's needs but until we've configured it to behave the way we want it to we're planning to stick to our slightly older 1.93 version. Some of the newer features I think sounds absolutely lovely and some I disagree with, but regardless of that I think it's really nice that someone is actually taking the time to work on Prophunt.
Lucky Duck
Lucky? What an insult!
;)